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FB RAT has been a buzz of discussion, off line and on, about meeting in Meerut to provide feedback directly to manufacturers there.
And Gagan is putting his money where his mouth is. As he mentions, has this concept been kicking around for four years?
"Guys, here s my offer again after 4 years. I invite all experts on the panel to come together in april and come to india. April is still tolerable, temperatures in mid 30s. Stay with us for a week. Your expense = air tickets, about 600 euros from europe. We will take care of local transport. Lodging and food is inexpensive in our city. So expect total expenses at about 1000-1200 euros for a week. Against this, I will spend entire week with you- we will correct and make new products together, and call this RAT approved series. so, lets say we build complete gear, what you get in return will be a full set of what you designed with us- more than the 1200 euros that you will spend on your travels. What you will have is something you can call your own. What we will have is RAT approved products for offer to the community. Think and let me know your thoughts.
Richard Campbell
Legio XX - Alexandria, Virginia
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Guys
I now also have an access to a 3D printer. So, if someone cannot travel, but can still send in good quality 3D rendered images ready to print, that would be a good start too.
Gagan
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So I have to pay for the tickets etc. myself? LOL
Step one in "How to avoid paying for research and development".... ;-)
All you get is a few items which in India cost the producer less than a quarter of the price they are sold for in EU and US.
Christian K.
No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.
Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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Also, you should first ask at RAT whether RAT is OK in calling your items "RAT approved", as that would be taking sides with manufacturers, wouldn´t it?
Christian K.
No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.
Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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Look, there is no compulsion.
Also, then you want the products to be cheap.
What I pay my labour and for materials should not be an issue at all anyway- and besides we are a company, and like to pay wages as per law- and believe me we pay much higher than any other Indian armoury company around. Most of the people we have been with us for over decades, and it shows, how they want to be with us.
I thought the whole idea of this thread or a new forum was simple- to make better products for Roman reenactment. If you can achieve the same in US and Europe and they can supply worldwide- it is ok with me.
Also, development costs time and money too. I have to stop production during this period- the same craftment would make 10 swords, in which he will develop 1- so there is a cost involved. Nothing comes free my friend.
I dont mean to offend anyone here, but the fact remains, that development does cost money. We dont work for peanuts here either.
Gagan
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Richard.
What I would like to know is just who on RAT has the qualification to claim anything to be RAT approved and then again if anyone wanted me to go anywhere to give any of my 30 years and more of experience and expertise in Roman armour making and producing better Roman products, they would have to expect to be paying not just my fare to get there but also all my accommodation expenses as well for just like Gagan has said things don't come cheap.
Brian Stobbs
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That was Gagan's suggestion, to which I replied on FB that I doubt there is any way RAT members could be considered such a body to give such pronouncement or endorsement.
Richard Campbell
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Romanarmytalk is just a forums. We can't put our label on things: that's a whole different legal spectrum.
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Ok, lets forget about the tag. but atleast we can make things better.
Gagan
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Also, it would be good to realise that well made Roman gear costs money, whether or not they are made in India. India sports a great community of excellent craftsmen, real ones, who seem to be struggling to stay alive for lack of want for their products. I have this from an Indian source. Their metalwork is great in detail and craftsmanship. HOWEVER, within the Roman community, there is a craving for cheap stuff by individuals who want it all and they want it now. No building up of a kit over a period of a few years, no, they want the full Monty within a month, segmentata, pugio, belt, sword, shield, helmet, shoes, pilum or hasta and under the $800 for the whole set, please. So please guys on RAT and FAR, you are driving the crap-cart yourselves, fueled by vendors reselling with VERY healthy margins.
It is nice to see Deepeeka finally wanting to make an effort to shape up after all these years of us providing comments on their products to no real avail. But I do agree that in order to do so, investment is needed both in own research as in employing craftsman who CARE and know what a Roman (or any) sword and scabbard are all about. Craftsmen, not production workers.
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Excellent points. I think this will take a while to sort out.
Richard Campbell
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Why is putting "RAT approved" a legal jungle Evan? It's not at all, people endorse stuff all the time. Hell, they could put "Matt approved" and it's as easy as be agree sing to endorse whatever I put my name behind. Ultimately, it would be the owner(s) of RAT to agree to it. No other manufacturer has made this sort of offer before, so would you tell Deepeeka, we can't help you, because the other companies didn't ask for help also? Every other thread here is about improving or critiquing some other company's product, we've done it for years.
Gagan is offering to compensate you in gear, so no Christian, he isn't trying to manipulate people for R&D, since you, Christian have a bias with your involvement of AER, another Indian based company, you should have avoided any bashing of Deepeeka. Your cheap jab came off more as petty squabbling.
RAT has become so negative, it's not hard to understand why Rusty left or FAR was founded. Poor Gagan, makes an offer and all anyone does is scoff at it or say something negative? Of all the diverse forums I've come across, RAT is the most brutal and elitist when it comes to offering any sincere help, and not just to manufacturers but potential reenactors. Hell I didn't join this forum right away for fear that I would get shot down for my newbie answers. No wonder Roman reenactment is so small in North America if this site is what potential recruits half to trek through.
Back on topic, plenty of individuals have helped develop Indian products, let's not pretend that we can't agree that there aren't some qualified people here (again negativity). Everyone wants to eat the bread, but no one wants to help bake it.
Quintus Furius Collatinus
-Matt
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Guys
Before there is any confusion. Here is the thing. I am not trying to be a cheapy at getting free developments.
1. But please see if say a pugio retails for about $300, I would be handing it out at about $150 here in India. So, when we talk about equipment of about $1500 worth, it would be really mean about $3000 worth
Shipping would be in addition about $500 per person.
2. Also, although I am a company, I cannot afford to pay 3-4 people visit (about $6000) and a week's development.
My idea is still there- lets make things better for the community. As I said, we can all save money if we have to- send me 3D files to print masters. And maybe we can do it offline, as we have done in the past.
Adrian has done this in the past- come to India- spend a week here- we recreated about 15 helmets during the time. Things can be done- if we really want to do things.
If you are willing to spend this 1200-1500 dollars, and get merchandise worth $3000, and the best out there, I dont know why we are having this debate.
Plus, there is no compulsion on anyone to participate. Offline feedback is always welcome as has always been. Its just faster and easier to be on the spot doing things.
Deepeeka will stand by, always trying to make things and make things better for the community.
Gagan
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Hi Gagan,
I think you have made us a great offer, indeed in line with the tradition of your relation with the community, and it's up to people here to take up the challenge. If it were possible for me to do it I would. yes, it's more or less cheap R&D fro Depeeka, but no one is saying that it isn't.
Of course you can't please all the people all of the time, and my namesake Robert is correct in his comments - in the past we did experience that quality control slipped over time, even after a product started out great. BUT that should not discourage anyone here from thinking about this, after all IF you wawnt a better product this is certainly the way to do it. I recall that we supported Adrian from our end while he was there, providing the info from the books.
Yes I agree, mass-produced goods are not the same quality as those produced as individual products by artisans on a one-on-one base. But if you want an affordable product and can't afford museum prices, Gagan is right.
So take it or leave it, but I think that in this community there will be (should be) room for products from both end of the spectrum. And this is a chance to make some product better. Everyone can decide to take it or leave it, but i say we should not discourage other from taking the offer, just because they don't like it themselves. 
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