Painted Leather?

[Gashford]

Hello all<br>
<br>
Well the holidays are coming (or so the coke advert tells me) and I am once again thinking about leather/metal manica.<br>
<br>
Given the Roman ability and desire to make things aesthetic and the painting found frequently on images around padding and statues does anyone know whether Roman leather work was ever painted or dyed?<br>
<br>
Generally paints and dyes 'take' well to leather in my experience, but I was wondering whether anyone knows much about decorative work done to Roman leather.<br>
<br>
The blank leather look favoured by Hollywood might cloud our judgements to the 'horrific' colouring favoured by so many ancient civilisations, such as the recently repainted Augustus statue and the brilliantly coloured ceramic tiles of babylon etc ...<br>
<br>
Does anyone know whether colouring has been found on leather work of any kind?<br>
<br>
All the best <p>Graham Ashford<br>
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[aitor iriarte]

Yes, Roman military colored leather was found at Qasr Ibrim (Nubia-Egypt) and Carol van Driel read a paper on it at the South Shields ROMEC. Unfortunately, that paper was not published with the proceedings at JRMES<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

A lot of medieval cuir-bouilli was decorated in paint or gesso. This is one of the arguments against the use of wax in hardening leather. It isn't possible to apply paint/gesso to wax-treated leather. <p></p><i></i>

[Gashford]

I have seen some beautiful reconstructions of the medieval armour a while ago, but unfortunately lost the link, it was of a vambrace I think?<br>
<br>
Looking at some gladiatorial (sadly not military) manica images I have started to wonder about the colour of the devices. The cloth ones are sometimes painted with rings of colour and (what look like) metal ones are often coloured at the shoulder with some form of pattern.<br>
<br>
It got me wondering about other painted leather, to see whether there was any form of precedent to base painted leather upon.<br>
<br>
On some gladiatorial paintings the fighter seems to be wearing feminalia with patterns on them as well ... possibly painted?<br>
<br>
I am groping about in the dark a little with this, so any information would be very helpful and gratefully recieved <p>Graham Ashford<br>
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[Carlton Bach]

it isn't armour-grade leather, but what about Persian and Scythian clothing? it is often shown as colourful (or at least patterned), and at least the caps are usually assumed to be of leather (though I have read the cloaks of the 'Immortals' might also have been). Hard to tell whether it's not applique work or embroidery rather than painting, though.<br>
<br>
A little closer to home: a relief from the Museo Archeologico Nazionale di Napolli (No 6704) shows two gladiators with small round shields that look like moulded-leather parmae, but are decorated richly. Junkelmann reconstructs the type as leather, with the designs painted on. They may also be metal, though. I think a bronze shield of this kind has been found.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Gregg]

Okay, I know we discussed this not too long ago (I've given up trying to use the search engine on ezboard)...<br>
<br>
The leather proto-quasi-sorta-lamellar found at Dura Europas (which was either a thigh defense or a crinet from a horse armor) was, as I recall, dyed or painted red.<br>
<br>
I mention it assuming that it was, in fact, a piece of Roman - and not Parthian or allied - equipment.<br>
<br>
Anyone with James' book handy want to jump in with more info?<br>
<br>
Gregg <p></p><i></i>

[Carlton Bach]

At least one of the pouches (7.44) in En Gedi was painted (in Yigael Yadin's words: "The outer surface of the purse was coloured red..." (Finds from the Bar Kokhba Period in the Cave of Letters, p. 162). He remarks on this specially other objects were dyed. <p></p><i></i>

[Daniel S Peterson]

All of the Fayum soldier mummy portraits I have seen in color have red-colored sword baldrics, and most other leather strapping in Roman art is painted/dyed this color as well. I even recall a named lion in a mosaic (probably a very adept survivor of beast fights, or trained to do tricks), wearing a red leather harness richly studded with decorations.<br>
<br>
There is some evidence to suggest that all of the natural leather pteruges of hollywood Roman costumes may in reality have actually been vividly colored fabric, as color traces on the Prima Porta statue reveal.<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
Dan <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Dying leather in a colour, how was/is it actually done?<br>
I am looking for a workable procedure here.<br>
<br>
Jurgen/Quintilianus <p></p><i></i>

[Carlton Bach]

I can't give you exact details, but many dyestuffs for cloth (rubia, murex purple, grenadine and such) also work for leather. Black can be made by combining iron and acid (iron filings in vinegar, I'm told). My mordant of choice would be alum, but that's off the top of my head with no research. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Thanks Carlton, you have put me on the right track.<br>
<br>
Jurgen/Quintilianus <p></p><i></i>

[Theodosius the Great]

Avete Omnes,

Generally paints and dyes 'take' well to leather in my experience,

I've worked with dye but not paint. There is some leather paint I could buy from a local store, but I was wondering if paint on leather has any tendency to crack ?

I'm thinking of painting a pair of boots and a baldric.

Thanks, if you can offer any advice.


Theo

[Tarbicus]

There is some leather paint I could buy from a local store, but I was wondering if paint on leather has any tendency to crack ?

I've only used paint on a fixed leather surface, a gladius scabbard, and no problems at all (Dylon). The paint is used for shoes and handbags, etc, and the instructions say it is fine for them so long as you follow the instructions properly (scour the surface first with the pad provided making sure it is been wetted, and let properly dry). It's a very popular range of leather paints so it must work. You have to put on at least two layers, brushed in different directions, to get a decent application. I ended up giving my scabbard three layers, but that was because of remnants of the black paint still being in the leather.

[Mithras]

Red leather baldrics and belts are common in the 4thC mosaics and wall-paintings, as are black shoes.

I plan to paint shoes black to match the Piazza Armerini mosaics (with Tarbicus' Dylon) - I have heard there is no evidence of leather dying in Britain in the Roman period ...

[Marcus Mummius]

Is there someone out there who has already dyed leather with madder? What to use as a mordant? What temperature?

Vale,