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Quote:Dr Mike Burns, in the q&a at the end of his paper [i]The South Italic cuirass from the 6th to 3rd centuries BC, mentioned that the familiar 'square' Roman cardiophylax was basically invented by Peter Connelly! He said that Peter had admitted there was no real evidence for it. When asked for his view, Dr Burns turned to a slide showing a late Italic muscled breastplate - 'I think it looked like that', he said.[/i]
Renatus wrote:
"To add a couple of points to Nathan's comments: Peter Connolly's rendition of the Roman cardiophylax was, he told Dr Burns, based on Polybius' description of it as being a brass plate a span square but, as Nathan says, there was no other evidence for it"
I don't count myself as any kind of expert in this but:
I am actually surprised at this as P.F.Stary in his study "Zur Eisenzeitlichen Bewaffnung und Kampfrsweisen in Mittelitalien", lists no less then 13 pectorals(pektorale) and 40 Herzpanzer apparently concentrated in central Italy(east and west coast), although these appear to be much earlier then Polybius's description which would otherwise appear to be correct...... perhaps what he meant was, there was no physical evidence from Polybius's TIME of Roman use of such a piece..... on the other hand Polybius could have been way out with his hand span approximation ?
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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Quote:His 'conclusive redating' of the Deir-el-Medineh helmet to the 'first half of the 5th century to the first half of the 7th century' is at 41 minutes 36 seconds or thereabouts. I seem to have remembered this is as '6th century', which is close enough! Still not sure that I'm convinced though, even so...
I evidently missed the second part of his dating comment. That said, his dating is based on examples of the Leiden variant which he suggests is contemporary or closely subsequent to the Deir-el-Medineh helmet. However, he also seems to suggest that, on stylistic grounds, the dating of the Deir-el-Medineh helmet to the 4th century is plausible, although he may be referring to an earlier theory; it is not entirely clear. It seems to me that the wrap-around cheek/ear pieces, as found also on the Deurne and Berkasovo helmets, are the key. The Deurne helmet is certainly Constantinian. Do we know from other evidence when this type of protection for the side of the head went out of fashion?
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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I think that what he's saying is the ridge helmets are going out of fashion by the late 5th century and being replaced by Spangenhelms, but to be honest I find him difficult to follow.
The latest helmet with the Deir-el-Medineh cheek pieces, is I think the Sutton Hoo helmet of the late 6th or early 7th century(depending on the age of the helmet before burial), but they are a reduced version and it has more in common with late roman ridge helmets then it does with Spangenhelms, though there only really seems to be a distant connection.
Otherwise I think Deir-el-Medineh may well be the end of the line or a transitional design.... ?
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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Got it. What would John like?
Richard Campbell
Legio XX - Alexandria, Virginia
RAT member #6?
