Hi all,
I have searched all over for info on these and can find/do not own, the relevant literature.
Could anyone provide any info exactly what they looked like or any finds or any links please.
Reason being, I have made a second Paenula Cloak and wish to put 4 of these on it. I am not keen on the "toggles" type.
Any help much appreciated.
Kevin
Kevin.
Here are just a couple of the many in my collection and as you can see I have in fact reproduced these in the past, will do some measurements and details of their use for you.
[attachment=12040]easyshare2144Medium.jpg[/attachment]
I put some in my book 'Roman Military Dress' but the main article is by J.P.Wild, 'Button and Loop fasteners in the Roman Provinces', Britannia 1, 137- 155. 1970.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
I've wanted to put these kind of fasteners on my paenula for a while now, but also had trouble coming across information
and how common they were, or not.
Not a big fan of toggles or brooches myself, but that's my own thing.
Andy Volpe
"Build a time machine, it would make this [hobby] a lot easier." https://www.facebook.com/LegionIIICyr/
Legion III Cyrenaica ~ New England U.S.
Higgins Armory Museum 1931-2013 (worked there 2001-2013)
(Collection moved to Worcester Art Museum)
The Camomile Street Stele shows both toggles and Button and loop. but what is Button and Loop please?
And who categorised it? With what authority?
Causes a huge amount of "shite" now trying to work it out let alone reproduce/Replicate.
@ Brian....I still don't understand how these items "click" together. Any advice please.
Kevin
As none have ever been found on a cloak itself, how they were fastened is a matter of interpretation. As is indeed that they are what they are supposed to be!
I am sure there are those who say they were used to attach daggers to belts.
There are a couple of sculptures which seem to show different methods of fastening the paenula cloak and in at least one example it appears to be sewn closed.
You can attach a loop of leather thong on one edge of the cloak and the metal fastener on the other edge. The loop of the thong then passes over the 'button' edge. It is not a totally secure method of closing the cloak and a scarf is generally worn underneath to fill in the gaps. In later times a flap was attached to the front of the cloak to give better protection to the neck.
Attached is my own reconstruction of the Camomile cloak with the two types of fastener.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
I've wanted to put these kind of fasteners on my paenula for a while now, but also had trouble coming across information
and how common they were, or not.
Not a big fan of toggles or brooches myself, but that's my own thing.
I would suggest many different uses, the tear drop shapes seem perfect for easily pushing through a hole...
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
Quote:I would suggest many different uses, the tear drop shapes seem perfect for easily pushing through a hole...
I've always been fairly certain that they were multi-functional (Wild's typology may - or may not - isolate some of the differences). As an example, the 2nd-century boss-and-petal type shares its decorative motif with numerous items of riding and draught harness so may have been used for that as well as dress fastening.
Mike Bishop
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles
Yes, i think too there were multifuncional. I have used it to hang cavalry pendants and in my cavalry belt to hang the spatha. You can pass the button trough a hole in the leather, as Crispianus says, and the other extrem can used to pass a leather strap, a metal pendant, etc... I think it could be used too in this way as a simple buckle for belts.
Where I would agree with Graham as to the loops used though maybe shorter in length the shank or triangle along with its button should go through a slot a little further from the edge of the material and then stitched inside so that the button sits about 5 mm away from the edge of the material, this way it would close the gap that is showing on the drawing that Graham has given here.
Then I have to say that I do not agree what ever that these tiny fragile things were ever used to carry a dagger or even more the weight of a sword for being mostly cast items with any severe movement at all would very easily snap the button from its loop.
Where we look at the Camomile street soldier his cloak is completely closed down the front that might even suggest that there could even have been button holes used on one edge to go over the buttons of these loop fasteners.
[attachment=12043]cs_2015-03-21.jpg[/attachment]
Quote:Where we look at the Camomile street soldier his cloak is completely closed down the front that might even suggest that there could even have been button holes used on one edge to go over the buttons of these loop fasteners.
I must admit I too favour button holes, hinted at by the way the fabric is depicted as pulling:
However, until somebody finds a button hole in a piece of textile, the jury's out on that one. ;-)
Mike Bishop
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles
Mike.
I think what you say is very true but as far as a button hole this shot of the Camomile street soldier would appear to be as near as what we are likely to get.
Quote:I must admit I too favour button holes, hinted at by the way the fabric is depicted as pulling:
I think that the problem with that is that the edges of the garment meet without any overlap. This could be achieved by sewing a short length of leather thong parallel to edge of the cloth on one side through which the button passes. This would draw the edges together without overlapping. Also, there is no fastening at the point where the garment divides above the waist. This implies that it is partially sewn closed and that, once passed over the head, the gap is reduced by fastening the buttons at the top.
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
![[Image: 6630377355_a2548f90a2_z.jpg]](https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7151/6630377355_a2548f90a2_z.jpg)
