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02-12-2005, 04:01 AM

To Tarbicus and Tiberius, my apologies for the confusion earlier: my post stated the doublings were better than the one "shown above it". I neglected to add "on the La Wren's Nest site" I was not referring to the caped hamata shown above my post on this thread, which is quite nice. 
 
The hamata I was addressing was one of the Deepeeka ones, which is what Ebustanus' original question was about. I would note again that the one I posted is $280; I'm fairly certain that the beautiful work of Tiberius is a bit more than that. Just something to consider if you're new to the hobby... 
 
Re: Florentius' comment about the inaccuracy of the hooks, he is of course correct. I assumed, however, that Ebusatanus would simply remove them (and the sleeves) for a Republican impression, and add the "doubling only" buttons with the leather crosspiece (as per the well-known grave stele of Domitius Ahenobarbus, 2nd Century BCE). 
 
Re: fratre Flavius' post about the length, my comment "shorten to taste" was actually meant to address the length issue. 
 
As to which is better, the Deepeeka standard or centurion models, I spoke with Julie at La Wren's, who confirmed that the sleeves of both are generally the same length... only the doubling on the cent. model is much better made, and the it's longer overall. Currently, we in Legion VI can get either for the same price, $262. Here's a pic of the standard model, please compare for yourself to the centurion model I posted earlier: 
 
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v204/darius27/rlo6802_th.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
If Ebustanus is still in the market for a Deepeeka hamata, due to cost, availability, whatever, I stand by my original recommendation. With some fairly painless modifications, it's just a better-looking shirt. It's also in stock, whereas the standard model is not. 
 
best to all, 
Darius

Ebusitanus · 02-12-2005, 08:39 AM

I got a bit lost here...The Depeeka Hamata I showed in the first post does not mave much of a sleeve...you mean it has all to go? And if the hooks are wrong, how should they be corrected? Is there some guide for a noob? 
 
8 mm rings, do they look decent? If that hamata in my initial post is 8 mm it does look nice.

FlaviusCrispus · 02-12-2005, 05:33 PM

<<I got a bit lost here...The Depeeka Hamata I showed in the first post does not mave much of a sleeve...you mean it has all to go? And if the hooks are wrong, how should they be corrected? Is there some guide for a noob? 
 
8 mm rings, do they look decent? If that hamata in my initial post is 8 mm it does look nice. >> 
 
Sorry, Ebus-- didn't mean to turn your simple questions into a confusing exchange. Let me attempt to clarify... 
 
(1) The "Deepeeka" hamata you depict in your first post is NOT actually a Deepeeka product-- it was made by Tiberius of Legio XX (Jeff Crean) for Terry Nix; apparently, the photo was "cloned" by another supplier (Legio VIIII's "Armillae"?) and used to depict what a Deepeeka "Centurio" hamata might look like. Actually, Jeff's work is far superior to the average Deepeeka shirt, with proper shoulder doubling, chest hooks, etc. Also, he made this shirt out of 7mm bronze rings, which accounts for its dense, dark look, and shortened the bottom and trimmed it in leather for a Centurion impression. If this specific shirt design interests you, contact Jeff (Tiberius) about price and lead-time (my experience is that Jeff is VERY reasonable in his prices, considering you;re getting quality custom work). 
 
(2) Actual Deepeeka mail shirts have their good and bad points. Good: They're cheap, there's very little wait for an off-the-shelf shirt, and the shoulder doubling is usually pretty nice. Bad: The chest hook system is wrong on both the models illustrated; Deepeeka chainmail is galvanized, which can have a too-gleamy, too-modern look; both versions of the shirt have rather long sleeves, which need to be shortened to be accurate, and one of the models illustrated also needs to be shortened considerably in the body. 
 
(3) If you go with a standard Deepeeka hamata, you'll probably want to modify it a bit by shortening the sleeves and body, and perhaps moving the chest hooks around and adding a second set of studs on the doubling to hook them around (just look at Jeff Crean's mail shirt to see how this is supposed to work). This is pretty simple work even for a "noob," as the standard-model Deepeeka chain shirts are made from butted rings which can easily be forced open for "tailoring." If you want to go the extra mile, you can also remove the galvanization by soaking the whole shirt in vinegar for awhile. 
 
Some specific guidelines on tailoring a Roman mail shirt can be found at Matt Amt's Legio XX hamata page: 
 
www.larp.com/legioxx/hamata.html 
 
(4) 8mm rings are about the maximum size the Romans made (most Roman mail is from MUCH smaller rings, down to 3/4 mm!), so they are generally acceptable. As noted above, most off-the-shelf mail is made from butted rings, which is not how the Romans made it-- they used alternating rows of riveted and solid rings. Most groups accept butted mail as a suitable representation of Roman mail. 
 
(5) In addition to their standard, off-the-shelf Roman mail shirts, Deepeeka and other groups also now offer riveted mail at about twice the price of the butted examples. Deepeeka also offers the option of smaller rings (down to 6mm, I believe) both butted and riveted, and in several different metals and finishes (galv steel, mild steel, stainless, steel, brass, aluminum, etc.). Deepeeka's catalog also shows a variety of "cuts" (i.e. centurio, signifer, cavalry, dagged hem, etc.) However, this requires a detailed, custom order, and I am not familiar with Deepeeka's pricing, or the lead time required to fill this kind of order. A Deepeeka distributer like La Wren's Nest can probably fill you in on the custom ordering options. 
 
If you'll post your location (U.S.? Europe?), we can direct you to a Deepeeka supplier or a custom mail maker who can fulfill your needs. 
 
I hope this helps! If it's still a little confusing, keep posting and asking questions, and we'll do our best to help out! 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Lef VI VPF 
CA, USA 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/12/05 9:24 pm

02-12-2005, 07:04 PM

Does the vinegar have an adverse effect on leather and stiching or can the leather be left on while soaking to remove galvanization?

Tarbicus · 02-13-2005, 09:15 AM

Quote:<hr>apparently, the photo was "cloned" by another supplier ......... and used to depict what a Deepeeka "Centurio" hamata might look like.<hr> 
 
This is a good point - this means I don't think I've ever seen a photo of an actual Deepeeka hamata. I thought I finally had, but it turned out I was looking at someone else's hard work. Has anyone seen a photo? Or, does anyone know of where I can get to see one? All depictions have been really ropey drawings/diagrams, even on Deepeeka's website, and that's for pretty much all chainmail 
 
Cheers, 
Jim/Tarbicus Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tarbicus>Tarbicus</A> at: 2/13/05 10:16 am

02-14-2005, 03:07 AM

Jim, the ones shown in posts 9 and 16 above ARE the Deepeeka hamatas. Deepeeka makes stuff, but you can only purchase it from an authorized dealer, not Deepeeka directly. These are offered by La Wren's Nest, as well as some other dealers.

Tarbicus · 02-14-2005, 07:05 AM

Righto, got it. Cheers. Usually I need more pictures to explain something, but that clearly didn't work in this case....

02-14-2005, 10:24 AM

I would like to comment on that gladius with the silvered pommel/grip/guard. It is actually correct! The question is: is it done with the right procedure? see: [url=http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-Attack.html#sword" target="top]www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-Attack.html#sword[/url] 
The scabbard is poorly done. The central piece is a very much simplified and altered version of the Fulham scabbard, so it is pure fantasy. 
 
Jurgen/Quintilianus

FlaviusCrispus · 02-14-2005, 05:44 PM

Ave, Quint... 
 
Now we see where the Deepeeka people got the idea for the silvered pommell/handle. Unfortunately, I have seen this piece in in person (I believe it's the Antikke Sammulung in Munich), and my distinct impression was that the handle is a modern restoration, cast from some kind of resin, the show how a real handle might have looked on an original blade. 
 
If it's a real handle, belonging to this blade, what's it made of? Silver? Assuming it's solid (and it would have to be, or it would be too thin and likely to brek), that would be a whopping amount of silver for a Roman, probably a half-year's worth of denarii! Some other metal? Tinned bronze? It just doesn't have the look of a bronze object-- it looks more hewn, whittled and filed, as with a wood-bone handle, not cast or forged. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Leg VI VPF Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/14/05 10:23 pm

02-14-2005, 05:47 PM

One of the main problems with the Deepeeka hamata is the use of 16 gauge wire, whose rings have an inside diameter of 3/8 inch. If you look at the second hamata (Rich Campbell wearing it along with an Italic C helm), the piece appears translucent. I'm sure that the other Deepeeka "quality" 
"evening gown" hamata would look the same. Does it come with gloves? 
Also, many rings in these hamatae are not completely closed, and some are bent badly, with just poor workmanship all around. 
My hamatas (this is not an advertisement but a recommendation to anyone who might try to attemt a hamata) are alternating rows of 7mm wire rings and stamped rings of slightly larger diameter. The flat section of the stamped ring gives a sheen that is not unlike the look of scale plates from a distance. It makes the maille "fuller". It also makes the work in creating one go about 1/4th quicker. 
My first attempts, the ones pictured, did not have this feature due to costs. 
 
Tiberius 
LEG~XX 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tiberius@romanarmytalk>Tiberius</A> at: 2/15/05 12:14 am

rusty myers · 02-14-2005, 08:13 PM

The ones on the Soul of the Warrior Website are of a genuine Deepeeka Soldier's Hamata. I have some more of it I will try to add, but there is a closeup of the hook and the back, and a small pic of the front. Will see if I can find the rest, I know we took more. 
 
www.soulofthewarrior.com 
 
under Roman Armor: Roman Armors: Soldiers' Hamata

02-15-2005, 01:47 AM

I have yet to see a Deepeeka hamata up close. I'm curious, how does the Deepeeka stuff compare to what I'm making? To see an example of mine go to: 
 
66.66.131.145/roman/maill...solid3.jpg 
 
The inside diameter is 1/4 inch and I make the riveted rings from 16 gauge ungalvanized steel wire.

02-16-2005, 09:42 AM

Ave, Crispus 
 
FeugÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¨re's book 'Weapons of the Romans' shows a drawing of the gladius including the handle. It does even have an inscription of the owner or manufacturer in the handle. FeugÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¨re does not say much about it however. 
 
Jurgen/Quintilianus

Ebusitanus · 02-17-2005, 10:33 AM

So this is the Deepeeka mail? 
 
<img src="http://www.soulofthewarrior.com/rs/images/inventory/hamatacloseup.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
A much better alternative than the typical mailshirt! Our Soldiers' Hamata is made of 8mm butted rings with proper doubler and leather lining. Includes hamata hooks and atttachments. A great new item! Price is for the 8mm Steel version. Also available by special order in the following ways/prices: Rivetted 8mm Brass $2000 Rivetted 10mm Brass $1900 Copper 8mm $700 Stainless 10mm $750 Stainless 10mm Rivetted $1100 Rivetted 8mm Steel $1500 8mm Steel $290 (Pictured) Spring Steel $500 
 
Weight: 32 lbs 
 
<img src="http://www.soulofthewarrior.com/rs/images/inventory/chainmailstraight.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
<img src="http://www.soulofthewarrior.com/rs/images/inventory/chainmailjagged.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
http://www.soulofthewarrior.com/rs/cata ... n%20Armors
 
I need some help here then...IÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´m trying to begin an impression as Augustan Legionaire and, frankly, IÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´m very afaird now to spend big cash in something not really worth it on the long run.

02-17-2005, 12:28 PM

I bought one of the Deepeeka "evening gowns" from LaWrens last summer. 
 
On the positive side, It isn't all that expensive and the Doubling and brass hooks work and seem to look "good enough" for most people. 
 
I took off the arms as they were too small and about 8" off of the bottom. 
 
 
I have also just purchased an oversized standard Renfair type maille shirt off of E-bay for cheap money which will also need to have sections removed. 
 
I also make butted maille shirts on occassion. 
as a result I will be able to combine the leftovers of these two with another patch of 3/8 that I already have and get a 3rd maille shirt . 
3 butted hamata's for under $400 
 
My goal for the Auxilliary contingent of our legion is to eventually have a smaller version of Dan Petersons "Traveling supply room", and have enough equipment for 5 or 6 Auxilliaries. 
 
My personal goal is to buy a generic riveted maille shirt next year.

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