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Origin of the Alans
#25
Hi, Michael

Yes, Torday claims "Wusun" comes from Turkish, which would seem he regarded them as a Turkic tribe. If we use logic and geography, Torday's argument fails. The Yuezhi were the easternmost Indo-Iranian tribe next to the Xiongnu, a proto-Turkic tribe. When the Xiongnu attacked the Yuezhi, they fled west and conversely attacked the Wusun. To me, this pinpoints the Wusun as living in Indo-Iranian territory, thus the western neighbors of the Yuezhi.

The Wusun as "the tents" hypothesis for the origin of the name is more of a failure. It obvious reflects a derogatory expression coined two generations after the Chinese recorded them as the "Wusun." I'll stick with my own analysis based on an expression so old it might hark back to proto-Indo-European. The Aswin or Asvin (the "Horsemen") arrive in the Veda's oldest books, straight from the steppe in roughly 1,600 BC.

When Torday mentions the possibility that the Alans may have been the Kangju's leading clan, he might be correct. If so, the Kangju state during the last decades before the Common Era were apparently ruled by steppe people. If we use the Orlat plaques as a guide, we are looking at the handiwork of a talented steppe craftsman, not a cosmopolitan ivory worker. The work shows a raw energy, a steppe style always lost by a "civilized" copyist. The Orlat plaques were unearthed in prime Kangju territory and are stylistically related to our Pazyryk (Yuezhi?) horseman approaching his bald-headed priestess. The art-style shows the horse's distinctive hind legs, only seen on these two examples:

   

I've mirror-imaged the horse to place its hind legs to the left. Note the shape of the legs and the stance of both legs. Now here is the Orlat version:

   
   

The Pazyryk horse and the two Orlat horses were rendered in the same artistic style, much the same as two Picasso paintings. To me, these illustrations point to a particular culture, not Chinese or Sogdian but a master craftsman of either the Yuezhi or Wusun yet found in the heart of Kangju territory. (This compliments Torday's hypothesis. And perhaps Kangju was a Yuezhi state.)

At this point, we need to date the Orlat belt plaques. They exhibit armor and weapons which also correspond within a specific period of Chinese history-- the Western Han Dynasty, 200BC to 100AD. Here is a reconstructionist's painting of a Western Han cavalryman.

   
The likeness of this Han cavalryman to the warriors on the Orlat plaques is striking. Also, note the horse's tail sheath which harks back to the Pazyryk image.

A 200BC to 100AD timeframe is perhaps longer than we might like. Can we narrow the period down? Is that possible? Again, I need help. Confused
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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Messages In This Thread
Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-04-2016, 03:27 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-04-2016, 04:50 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-04-2016, 08:58 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-05-2016, 08:43 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 01-05-2016, 09:24 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-05-2016, 02:50 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-05-2016, 03:55 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-05-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-05-2016, 05:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-06-2016, 12:28 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-06-2016, 08:20 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-06-2016, 08:50 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-06-2016, 07:16 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-07-2016, 05:22 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-08-2016, 05:49 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-08-2016, 06:44 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-08-2016, 07:15 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-08-2016, 07:56 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Renatus - 01-08-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-08-2016, 04:27 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-08-2016, 05:39 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Renatus - 01-08-2016, 06:35 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-08-2016, 09:41 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-09-2016, 05:00 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-09-2016, 06:58 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-10-2016, 05:18 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-11-2016, 12:23 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-11-2016, 12:53 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-11-2016, 03:53 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-22-2016, 02:06 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-22-2016, 09:02 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 01-22-2016, 09:47 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Athena Areias - 01-22-2016, 12:27 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-22-2016, 04:59 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-22-2016, 06:17 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-23-2016, 11:37 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-24-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-24-2016, 09:13 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-25-2016, 05:45 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-25-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-27-2016, 08:40 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-28-2016, 09:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-28-2016, 05:18 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-29-2016, 09:02 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-29-2016, 03:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 02-01-2016, 12:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 02-01-2016, 01:12 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-01-2016, 06:22 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-08-2016, 08:42 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 02-09-2016, 03:14 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 02-10-2016, 08:41 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-10-2016, 08:45 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-10-2016, 09:47 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-10-2016, 11:49 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 02-11-2016, 11:58 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-11-2016, 07:12 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 02-12-2016, 05:49 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-13-2016, 08:24 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-14-2016, 07:26 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-16-2016, 06:08 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-24-2016, 08:58 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 02-25-2016, 10:27 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Athena Areias - 02-24-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 02-24-2016, 12:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-25-2016, 06:18 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Flavivs Aetivs - 02-25-2016, 07:21 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-25-2016, 07:51 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-27-2016, 10:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Flavivs Aetivs - 02-29-2016, 03:09 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 02-29-2016, 03:51 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-29-2016, 05:18 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-02-2016, 01:59 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-02-2016, 07:38 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-06-2016, 08:31 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-06-2016, 11:47 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-07-2016, 05:10 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-10-2016, 09:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 03-11-2016, 09:30 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-11-2016, 03:29 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-11-2016, 04:51 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-13-2016, 08:16 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-14-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Athena Areias - 03-14-2016, 06:24 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-14-2016, 06:55 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Rennie De Giorgio - 03-17-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-17-2016, 02:31 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-18-2016, 02:49 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-19-2016, 11:08 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-24-2016, 03:55 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-27-2016, 06:53 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by sea78 - 03-29-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-29-2016, 05:52 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-03-2016, 06:03 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-04-2016, 04:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-04-2016, 05:08 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-04-2016, 06:30 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-09-2016, 04:40 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by sea78 - 04-10-2016, 08:48 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-11-2016, 05:02 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-11-2016, 06:15 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-13-2016, 04:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-13-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-14-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-14-2016, 05:16 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 04-19-2016, 08:18 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-15-2016, 04:16 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-15-2016, 05:54 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-15-2016, 07:18 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-16-2016, 01:26 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-16-2016, 09:43 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-18-2016, 05:57 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-19-2016, 12:12 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-19-2016, 05:06 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-19-2016, 04:09 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-21-2016, 05:46 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-22-2016, 11:29 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-29-2016, 02:03 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Steven James - 04-29-2016, 05:09 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-02-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 05-09-2016, 11:15 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-10-2016, 02:27 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-11-2016, 05:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-15-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-16-2016, 05:00 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 05-24-2016, 01:27 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 06-11-2016, 09:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 06-23-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 06-24-2016, 04:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 06-27-2016, 03:33 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 06-28-2016, 01:47 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 06-28-2016, 04:53 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-14-2016, 04:20 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 07-17-2016, 06:15 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-19-2016, 06:51 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 07-19-2016, 07:22 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 07-19-2016, 09:38 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-20-2016, 04:45 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 07-20-2016, 06:52 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-20-2016, 02:31 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by ValentinianVictrix - 07-20-2016, 03:54 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-20-2016, 08:59 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 07-21-2016, 05:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-26-2016, 03:19 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 07-26-2016, 07:12 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-26-2016, 07:45 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-14-2016, 09:18 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-15-2016, 09:08 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-23-2016, 08:46 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-23-2016, 10:05 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-24-2016, 01:35 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-24-2016, 06:59 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-24-2016, 08:10 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-24-2016, 09:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-30-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-30-2016, 03:02 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-30-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-02-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 09-02-2016, 01:36 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-02-2016, 10:34 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-14-2016, 04:58 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 09-14-2016, 06:03 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-14-2016, 06:27 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-21-2016, 04:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 09-24-2016, 04:03 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 10-01-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 10-01-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 10-30-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-01-2016, 06:00 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 11-01-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-03-2016, 02:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-13-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 11-17-2016, 07:36 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-17-2016, 10:24 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-05-2016, 12:09 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Dan D'Silva - 12-06-2016, 07:57 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 12-05-2016, 01:48 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-06-2016, 09:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 12-06-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-06-2016, 09:54 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 12-06-2016, 10:25 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-06-2016, 10:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-07-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 12-07-2016, 12:31 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-07-2016, 12:46 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 12-08-2016, 08:06 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-08-2016, 09:13 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-12-2016, 03:02 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-16-2016, 05:52 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-18-2016, 07:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-23-2016, 03:51 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-01-2017, 05:42 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-22-2017, 10:29 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 02-02-2017, 01:51 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-03-2017, 12:30 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-19-2017, 07:00 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-02-2017, 06:06 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 04-02-2017, 07:34 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-02-2017, 08:44 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 04-03-2017, 10:34 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-07-2017, 11:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-08-2017, 03:55 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-08-2017, 05:24 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-23-2017, 07:49 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 05-02-2017, 08:01 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-14-2017, 01:38 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 09-14-2017, 09:43 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 09-14-2017, 10:02 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-14-2017, 01:25 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 09-19-2017, 12:09 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-20-2017, 12:46 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-26-2017, 08:37 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 09-28-2017, 01:30 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 11-03-2017, 03:09 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-04-2017, 11:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-06-2017, 04:41 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-26-2017, 03:13 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-03-2017, 01:53 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 12-03-2017, 02:37 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-04-2017, 06:17 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-10-2017, 10:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-14-2017, 12:38 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 12-15-2017, 02:56 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-17-2017, 09:45 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-11-2018, 08:09 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-17-2018, 09:40 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-18-2018, 12:10 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-20-2018, 01:24 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-20-2018, 01:47 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 03-20-2018, 10:09 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-20-2018, 01:14 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-22-2018, 04:25 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 06-16-2018, 06:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Renatus - 06-16-2018, 09:32 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 06-17-2018, 01:25 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Sean Manning - 06-21-2018, 02:20 PM

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