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Origin of the Alans
Alanus wrote:


 And here we have the Andalusian (corrected to original-- "Vandalusian"). These horses arrived with the Vandal/Alan group that entered France from Pannonia on the last day of 406. They then moved into Spain, a number of Alans remaining behind and not crossing over to Africa. The breed would not be related to Arabians or Barbs, which (I believe) entered Spain from the opposite direction. They must date back to the Aorsi migration.

 I am not really sure about the origins of the Andalusian/Vandalusian horses but it seems that the ancestors of this breed were the Sorraia which some think are a native Iberian breed but others seem to think it was closely related to the Tarpan or Mongolian horse as well, and the North African or West African Barb. I am not disputing your assertion that the Alans might have had some input into the breeding of the ancestors of the Andalusians with their own livestock as Andalusia was in their zone of control after they invaded Spain with the Vandals and Suebi, but according to Deb Bennett in her book “Conquerors the Roots of New World Horsemanship” the Barb breed were introduced to the Spanish peninsula long before the Moorish Invasions. 

 The Barb itself is considered an ancient breed being a mixture of small herds of North African wild horses with a strong Oriental breed admixture, Numidian & Cyrenaicans, being the result of oriental horses being passed along via Egypt from both Anatolia and Persia via the Phoenicians/Carthaginians and also their trading rivals, the Greeks via Marseille and certain other Greek trading posts who would have traded Thessalonian  and other breeds of eastern stock. The Carthaginians even traded horses with the Irish and the Britons. The Barbs of the Moorish invasion which occurred much later had a lot of Arabian horse features. Carthage traded with the Iberians and established colonies in Spain and horses, especially Numidians and Barbs would have been prominent in the barter for silver. Even in 308 BC Carthage could field 2000 chariots against the forces of Agathocles of Syracuse so she had access to a lot of horses. 

Diodorus mentions the countryside surrounding Carthage itself as being well irrigated and divided into plantations of vines, olives and a variety of fruit trees with herds of cattle and sheep pastured on the plain and the neighbouring meadows were filled with grazing horses. Carthaginian coins of the mid 3rd century BC also show large powerful horses with well-developed legs, well muscled necks and alert ears. Their allies the Numidians were acknowledged as the best horsemen with their tough Numidian horses, of their day and they constantly embarrassed their Roman rivals in cavalry warfare that they had to be bought off by the Romans for them to get the upper hand. When Hannibal’s father Hamilcar Barca conquered most of Spain he would have bought over considerable cavalry and horses to mix with the local breeds. The Celts themselves were excellent horsemen so the Celtiberians would have had some quality horseflesh as well. In the days where there were no studbooks for breeds I do take your point that the introduction of new blood for horses from the Alans who would have been the eminent horse breeders of their day would have helped the local horse population. Smile 
 Just on the Akhal-Tekes and Ferghana horses it would have been nice if Sima Qian and the writer of the HanShu had been knowledgeable about horses as we don't seem to have a physical description of the animals themselves. We just read in Sima Qian that although the Wusun horses were magnificent they just weren't as magnificent as the Ferghana horses. Alfalfa must have made a big difference. Smile Smile
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
Reply


Messages In This Thread
Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-04-2016, 03:27 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-04-2016, 04:50 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-04-2016, 08:58 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-05-2016, 08:43 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 01-05-2016, 09:24 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-05-2016, 02:50 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-05-2016, 03:55 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-05-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-05-2016, 05:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-06-2016, 12:28 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-06-2016, 08:20 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-06-2016, 08:50 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-06-2016, 07:16 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-07-2016, 05:22 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-08-2016, 05:49 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-08-2016, 06:44 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-08-2016, 07:15 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-08-2016, 07:56 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Renatus - 01-08-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-08-2016, 04:27 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-08-2016, 05:39 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Renatus - 01-08-2016, 06:35 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-08-2016, 09:41 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-09-2016, 05:00 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-09-2016, 06:58 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-10-2016, 05:18 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-11-2016, 12:23 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-11-2016, 12:53 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-11-2016, 03:53 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-22-2016, 02:06 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-22-2016, 09:02 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 01-22-2016, 09:47 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Athena Areias - 01-22-2016, 12:27 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-22-2016, 04:59 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-22-2016, 06:17 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-23-2016, 11:37 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-24-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-24-2016, 09:13 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-25-2016, 05:45 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-25-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-27-2016, 08:40 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-28-2016, 09:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-28-2016, 05:18 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-29-2016, 09:02 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-29-2016, 03:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 02-01-2016, 12:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 02-01-2016, 01:12 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-01-2016, 06:22 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-08-2016, 08:42 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 02-09-2016, 03:14 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 02-10-2016, 08:41 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-10-2016, 08:45 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-10-2016, 09:47 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-10-2016, 11:49 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 02-11-2016, 11:58 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-11-2016, 07:12 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 02-12-2016, 05:49 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-13-2016, 08:24 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-14-2016, 07:26 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-16-2016, 06:08 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-24-2016, 08:58 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 02-25-2016, 10:27 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Athena Areias - 02-24-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 02-24-2016, 12:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-25-2016, 06:18 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Flavivs Aetivs - 02-25-2016, 07:21 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-25-2016, 07:51 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-27-2016, 10:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Flavivs Aetivs - 02-29-2016, 03:09 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 02-29-2016, 03:51 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-29-2016, 05:18 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-02-2016, 01:59 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-02-2016, 07:38 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-06-2016, 08:31 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-06-2016, 11:47 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-07-2016, 05:10 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-10-2016, 09:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 03-11-2016, 09:30 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-11-2016, 03:29 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-11-2016, 04:51 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-13-2016, 08:16 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-14-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Athena Areias - 03-14-2016, 06:24 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-14-2016, 06:55 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Rennie De Giorgio - 03-17-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-17-2016, 02:31 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-18-2016, 02:49 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-19-2016, 11:08 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-24-2016, 03:55 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-27-2016, 06:53 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by sea78 - 03-29-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-29-2016, 05:52 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-03-2016, 06:03 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-04-2016, 04:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-04-2016, 05:08 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-04-2016, 06:30 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-09-2016, 04:40 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by sea78 - 04-10-2016, 08:48 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-11-2016, 05:02 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-11-2016, 06:15 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-13-2016, 04:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-13-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-14-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-14-2016, 05:16 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 04-19-2016, 08:18 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-15-2016, 04:16 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-15-2016, 05:54 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-15-2016, 07:18 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-16-2016, 01:26 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-16-2016, 09:43 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-18-2016, 05:57 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-19-2016, 12:12 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-19-2016, 05:06 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-19-2016, 04:09 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-21-2016, 05:46 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-22-2016, 11:29 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-29-2016, 02:03 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Steven James - 04-29-2016, 05:09 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-02-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 05-09-2016, 11:15 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-10-2016, 02:27 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-11-2016, 05:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-15-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-16-2016, 05:00 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 05-24-2016, 01:27 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 06-11-2016, 09:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 06-23-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 06-24-2016, 04:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 06-27-2016, 03:33 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 06-28-2016, 01:47 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 06-28-2016, 04:53 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-14-2016, 04:20 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 07-17-2016, 06:15 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-19-2016, 06:51 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 07-19-2016, 07:22 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 07-19-2016, 09:38 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-20-2016, 04:45 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 07-20-2016, 06:52 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-20-2016, 02:31 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by ValentinianVictrix - 07-20-2016, 03:54 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-20-2016, 08:59 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 07-21-2016, 05:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-26-2016, 03:19 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 07-26-2016, 07:12 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-26-2016, 07:45 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-14-2016, 09:18 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-15-2016, 09:08 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-23-2016, 08:46 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-23-2016, 10:05 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-24-2016, 01:35 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-24-2016, 06:59 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-24-2016, 08:10 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-24-2016, 09:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-30-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-30-2016, 03:02 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-30-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-02-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 09-02-2016, 01:36 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-02-2016, 10:34 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-14-2016, 04:58 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 09-14-2016, 06:03 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-14-2016, 06:27 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-21-2016, 04:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 09-24-2016, 04:03 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 10-01-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 10-01-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 10-30-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-01-2016, 06:00 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 11-01-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-03-2016, 02:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-13-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 11-17-2016, 07:36 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-17-2016, 10:24 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-05-2016, 12:09 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Dan D'Silva - 12-06-2016, 07:57 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 12-05-2016, 01:48 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-06-2016, 09:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 12-06-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-06-2016, 09:54 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 12-06-2016, 10:25 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-06-2016, 10:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-07-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 12-07-2016, 12:31 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-07-2016, 12:46 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 12-08-2016, 08:06 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-08-2016, 09:13 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-12-2016, 03:02 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-16-2016, 05:52 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-18-2016, 07:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-23-2016, 03:51 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-01-2017, 05:42 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-22-2017, 10:29 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 02-02-2017, 01:51 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-03-2017, 12:30 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-19-2017, 07:00 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-02-2017, 06:06 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 04-02-2017, 07:34 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-02-2017, 08:44 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 04-03-2017, 10:34 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-07-2017, 11:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-08-2017, 03:55 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-08-2017, 05:24 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-23-2017, 07:49 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 05-02-2017, 08:01 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-14-2017, 01:38 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 09-14-2017, 09:43 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 09-14-2017, 10:02 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-14-2017, 01:25 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 09-19-2017, 12:09 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-20-2017, 12:46 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-26-2017, 08:37 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 09-28-2017, 01:30 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 11-03-2017, 03:09 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-04-2017, 11:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-06-2017, 04:41 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-26-2017, 03:13 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-03-2017, 01:53 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 12-03-2017, 02:37 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-04-2017, 06:17 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-10-2017, 10:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-14-2017, 12:38 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 12-15-2017, 02:56 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-17-2017, 09:45 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-11-2018, 08:09 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-17-2018, 09:40 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-18-2018, 12:10 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-20-2018, 01:24 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-20-2018, 01:47 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 03-20-2018, 10:09 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-20-2018, 01:14 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-22-2018, 04:25 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 06-16-2018, 06:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Renatus - 06-16-2018, 09:32 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 06-17-2018, 01:25 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Sean Manning - 06-21-2018, 02:20 PM

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