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Origin of the Alans
I found the paper on JSTor and downloaded the PDF via SciHub.

I understand your allergic reaction to all things Tocharian. And I'm certainly not saying we should cling to Tocharians as an explanation for everything.

In fact, it's impossible - the split of proto-Tocharian itself is (hard as it is) very roughly dated to the later centuries of the 1st millenium BCE. (so way too late for your Sheng charioteers/shamans, even if we assume it was spoken for centuries before that) A quote I remember from a Tocharian dictionary: "any dating of proto-Tocharian will be roughly contemporary with Old-Iranian."

That said, I think it's important not to leave the Tocharians to themselves as an inconvenient thorn in a shoe - while they may not have been the people you're looking for, they have to play SOME role in their story.

I'm reading Elizabeth Wayland Barber's "The Mummies of Ürümchi" and while a bit old, it does raise some interesting points about climate and location of the Tarim basin and Xinjiang in general. It talks about dating of the mummies and the oasis cultures and how the dating of 2000 BCE for the earliest ones is probably correct, since the land wouldn't have sustained any newcomers before that date. (a whole lot of stuff about little ice ages, glaciers and how the entire basin is fed by the Kunlun melt-waters. There is still some confusion, because carbon dating places some of these finds to 4000 BC.)

It's incredibly frustrating to me, that even with the recent (2015, was it?) DNA breakthroughs, we're still not much closer to identifying where these people came from and why Tocharian is so weirdly isolated from the other IE languages.

This book is also pretty interesting, because it has more photo material on the mummies than I've seen in the past. There's some definite cultural overlap with the Pazyryk textiles, let me tell you. There's even a single piece of pretty clear animal style. Whoever these people were, they were not at all far, culturally, from the Scytho-Siberian family.

These are still people living in the places trading all that Jade to China (supposedly Yuezhi) and where you placed the supposed Yuezhi "empire".
Jan Pospisil - fantasy/historical/archaeology illustration
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Messages In This Thread
Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-04-2016, 03:27 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-04-2016, 04:50 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-04-2016, 08:58 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-05-2016, 08:43 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 01-05-2016, 09:24 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-05-2016, 02:50 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-05-2016, 03:55 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-05-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-05-2016, 05:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-06-2016, 12:28 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-06-2016, 08:20 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-06-2016, 08:50 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-06-2016, 07:16 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-07-2016, 05:22 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-08-2016, 05:49 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-08-2016, 06:44 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-08-2016, 07:15 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-08-2016, 07:56 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Renatus - 01-08-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-08-2016, 04:27 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-08-2016, 05:39 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Renatus - 01-08-2016, 06:35 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-08-2016, 09:41 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-09-2016, 05:00 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-09-2016, 06:58 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-10-2016, 05:18 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-11-2016, 12:23 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-11-2016, 12:53 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-11-2016, 03:53 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-22-2016, 02:06 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-22-2016, 09:02 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 01-22-2016, 09:47 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Athena Areias - 01-22-2016, 12:27 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-22-2016, 04:59 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-22-2016, 06:17 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-23-2016, 11:37 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-24-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-24-2016, 09:13 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-25-2016, 05:45 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-25-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-27-2016, 08:40 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-28-2016, 09:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-28-2016, 05:18 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-29-2016, 09:02 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-29-2016, 03:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 02-01-2016, 12:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 02-01-2016, 01:12 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-01-2016, 06:22 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-08-2016, 08:42 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 02-09-2016, 03:14 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 02-10-2016, 08:41 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-10-2016, 08:45 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-10-2016, 09:47 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-10-2016, 11:49 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 02-11-2016, 11:58 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-11-2016, 07:12 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 02-12-2016, 05:49 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-13-2016, 08:24 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-14-2016, 07:26 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-16-2016, 06:08 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-24-2016, 08:58 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 02-25-2016, 10:27 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Athena Areias - 02-24-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 02-24-2016, 12:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-25-2016, 06:18 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Flavivs Aetivs - 02-25-2016, 07:21 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-25-2016, 07:51 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-27-2016, 10:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Flavivs Aetivs - 02-29-2016, 03:09 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 02-29-2016, 03:51 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-29-2016, 05:18 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-02-2016, 01:59 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-02-2016, 07:38 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-06-2016, 08:31 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-06-2016, 11:47 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-07-2016, 05:10 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-10-2016, 09:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 03-11-2016, 09:30 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-11-2016, 03:29 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-11-2016, 04:51 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-13-2016, 08:16 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-14-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Athena Areias - 03-14-2016, 06:24 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-14-2016, 06:55 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Rennie De Giorgio - 03-17-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-17-2016, 02:31 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-18-2016, 02:49 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-19-2016, 11:08 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-24-2016, 03:55 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-27-2016, 06:53 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by sea78 - 03-29-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-29-2016, 05:52 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-03-2016, 06:03 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-04-2016, 04:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-04-2016, 05:08 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-04-2016, 06:30 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-09-2016, 04:40 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by sea78 - 04-10-2016, 08:48 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-11-2016, 05:02 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-11-2016, 06:15 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-13-2016, 04:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-13-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-14-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-14-2016, 05:16 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 04-19-2016, 08:18 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-15-2016, 04:16 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-15-2016, 05:54 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-15-2016, 07:18 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-16-2016, 01:26 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-16-2016, 09:43 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-18-2016, 05:57 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-19-2016, 12:12 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-19-2016, 05:06 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-19-2016, 04:09 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-21-2016, 05:46 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-22-2016, 11:29 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-29-2016, 02:03 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Steven James - 04-29-2016, 05:09 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-02-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 05-09-2016, 11:15 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-10-2016, 02:27 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-11-2016, 05:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-15-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-16-2016, 05:00 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 05-24-2016, 01:27 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 06-11-2016, 09:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 06-23-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 06-24-2016, 04:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 06-27-2016, 03:33 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 06-28-2016, 01:47 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 06-28-2016, 04:53 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-14-2016, 04:20 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 07-17-2016, 06:15 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-19-2016, 06:51 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 07-19-2016, 07:22 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 07-19-2016, 09:38 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-20-2016, 04:45 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 07-20-2016, 06:52 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-20-2016, 02:31 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by ValentinianVictrix - 07-20-2016, 03:54 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-20-2016, 08:59 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 07-21-2016, 05:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-26-2016, 03:19 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 07-26-2016, 07:12 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-26-2016, 07:45 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-14-2016, 09:18 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-15-2016, 09:08 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-23-2016, 08:46 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-23-2016, 10:05 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-24-2016, 01:35 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-24-2016, 06:59 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-24-2016, 08:10 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-24-2016, 09:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-30-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-30-2016, 03:02 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-30-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-02-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 09-02-2016, 01:36 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-02-2016, 10:34 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-14-2016, 04:58 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 09-14-2016, 06:03 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-14-2016, 06:27 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-21-2016, 04:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 09-24-2016, 04:03 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 10-01-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 10-01-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 10-30-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-01-2016, 06:00 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 11-01-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-03-2016, 02:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-13-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 11-17-2016, 07:36 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-17-2016, 10:24 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-05-2016, 12:09 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Dan D'Silva - 12-06-2016, 07:57 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 12-05-2016, 01:48 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-06-2016, 09:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 12-06-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-06-2016, 09:54 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 12-06-2016, 10:25 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-06-2016, 10:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-07-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 12-07-2016, 12:31 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-07-2016, 12:46 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 12-08-2016, 08:06 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-08-2016, 09:13 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-12-2016, 03:02 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-16-2016, 05:52 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-18-2016, 07:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-23-2016, 03:51 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-01-2017, 05:42 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-22-2017, 10:29 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 02-02-2017, 01:51 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-03-2017, 12:30 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-19-2017, 07:00 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-02-2017, 06:06 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 04-02-2017, 07:34 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-02-2017, 08:44 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 04-03-2017, 10:34 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-07-2017, 11:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-08-2017, 03:55 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-08-2017, 05:24 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-23-2017, 07:49 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 05-02-2017, 08:01 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-14-2017, 01:38 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 09-14-2017, 09:43 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 09-14-2017, 10:02 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-14-2017, 01:25 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 09-19-2017, 12:09 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-20-2017, 12:46 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-26-2017, 08:37 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 09-28-2017, 01:30 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 11-03-2017, 03:09 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-04-2017, 11:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-06-2017, 04:41 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-26-2017, 03:13 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-03-2017, 01:53 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 12-03-2017, 02:37 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-04-2017, 06:17 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-10-2017, 10:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-14-2017, 12:38 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 12-15-2017, 02:56 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-17-2017, 09:45 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-11-2018, 08:09 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-17-2018, 09:40 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-18-2018, 12:10 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-20-2018, 01:24 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-20-2018, 01:47 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 03-20-2018, 10:09 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-20-2018, 01:14 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-22-2018, 04:25 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 06-16-2018, 06:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Renatus - 06-16-2018, 09:32 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 06-17-2018, 01:25 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Sean Manning - 06-21-2018, 02:20 PM

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