The Transition of Maile

[Flavivs Aetivs]

So quick and simple question: when does maile begin the transition of Thigh-Length, sleeveless, with a shoulder doubler to 1/2 sleeve, knee length hauberks? I always thought it was late 2nd century.

[Nathan Ross]

The question was partially addressed in this thread: Roman Mail Doublers. General consensus appears to be that doublers did not last much beyond the 1st century, or Hadrian's era at the latest. However, a single copper-alloy breast hook found at Dura Europos might suggest later use (or might have been a fixing for one of those 'breast plates' that also turn up at Dura, perhaps?)

I would imagine that the longer sleeves were a gradual introduction from around the same time that the doublers fell out of use. The auxiliaries on Trajan's Column are already wearing short-sleeved (or 'cap sleeved') mail without doublers. The longer-sleeved mail might have come in around the same time as the long sleeved tunic.

(by the way - why do you spell it 'maile'? I've noticed quite a few people doing this!)

[Flavivs Aetivs]

The question was partially addressed in this thread: Roman Mail Doublers. General consensus appears to be that doublers did not last much beyond the 1st century, or Hadrian's era at the latest. However, a single copper-alloy breast hook found at Dura Europos might suggest later use (or might have been a fixing for one of those 'breast plates' that also turn up at Dura, perhaps?)

I would imagine that the longer sleeves were a gradual introduction from around the same time that the doublers fell out of use. The auxiliaries on Trajan's Column are already wearing short-sleeved (or 'cap sleeved') mail without doublers. The longer-sleeved mail might have come in around the same time as the long sleeved tunic.

(by the way - why do you spell it 'maile'? I've noticed quite a few people doing this!)

"Mail" is what the postman brings you. "Maile" is what you rush forth glittering into arms with.

Otherwise, thanks for the post.

[Longovicium]

Some people even call it 'maille':

http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/a...hp?key=371

[Dan Howard]

"Maile" hasn't been used for centuries. "Mail" is the commonly accepted modern English term.

[Nathan Ross]

"Mail" is what the postman brings you. "Maile" is what you rush forth glittering into arms with.

Ha! Yes, I can see the advantage of spelling it differently, although generations of English scholars have got by alright using the standard spelling. I've always thought 'maile' or 'maille' was some sort of Old French spelling; it has an air of anachronism or even vague elitism about it. Although I have no idea what the current thinking in 'armour studies' might be...

About these doublers, meanwhile - I wonder if they might have been phased out gradually. The Ephesus relief that Ross Cowan referred to in the thread above shows (allowing for 'artistic license', ineptitude etc) what might be a sort of vestigal version. Perhaps the original 'doublers' were constructed on the model of the 'tube and yoke' cuirass, and made of leather (which would explain the shape and stiffness), later acquiring a layer of mail or scale over the top, secured around the edges. Maybe in time they shrank until they resembled the shoulder straps of the muscle cuirass - as we see on the Ephesus relief - before disappearing completely?

[Dan Howard]

I agree that the shoulder doublers were probably phased out gradually. It is unlikely that they were originally made from leather. Mail was only invented in the third century and the earliest depictions of Roman mail show doublers made from mail. The depictions of earlier Celtic mail show a similar shoulder doubling made from mail as well.

"Maille" is Old French". Modern French uses the plural, "mailles".

[Renatus]

"Maile" hasn't been used for centuries. "Mail" is the commonly accepted modern English term.

This confirms me in my view that the use of 'maile' in this context is an affectation. A Google search reveals that 'maile' is a flowering Hawaiian vine of the dogbane family.

[Nathan Ross]

It is unlikely that they were originally made from leather... the earliest depictions of Roman mail show doublers made from mail. The depictions of earlier Celtic mail show a similar shoulder doubling made from mail as well.

Yes, you're probably right. I was thinking that there were some depictions showing the doublers as blank or patterned, but I may have been mistaken about that. Also the Vacheres warrior, with the 'edging' to the shoulder doubling that appears very similar to his belt!

Meanwhile, I've been trying to find depictions of mail from the 2nd-3rd century that might give some clues as to the change between short and long hems/sleeves, but no luck so far. The Column of Marcus Aurelius, for what it's worth, shows the same short scalloped hauberks as Trajan's Column, and the Arch of Severus is too worn to make out.

The mail fragments from Dura suggest sleeves of mid upper-arm (381) to mid forearm (383). The 'Persian' from the siege mine had upper-thigh length mail, with sleeves to mid forearm or wrist.

The fragment of the (presumed) Arch of Diocletian shows two soldiers in very long (knee length?) hauberks of mail and/or scale, with sleeves to the wrist. The men on the Arch of Galerius appear similar.

So it seems all we can say (I think) is that the gradual change to longer styles of mail hauberk happened some time between the late 2nd and mid 3rd centuries (around the same time as the change in tunic?), and was perhaps an ongoing process!

[Dan Howard]

I've always maintained that Roman hamata had an integrated padded liner rather than a separate subarmalis. The edging on some depictions, such as the Vacheres warrior, is IMO an indication of an integrated liner.

[mcbishop]

"Maile" hasn't been used for centuries. "Mail" is the commonly accepted modern English term.

This confirms me in my view that the use of 'maile' in this context is an affectation. A Google search reveals that 'maile' is a flowering Hawaiian vine of the dogbane family.

Quite agree, and the Concise Oxford English Dictionary has 'mail' (i.e. armour) as a core sense for the word and no copy-editor would tolerate otherwise.

To answer the original question: we don't have enough evidence to answer the question :-)

Mike Bishop

[Robert Vermaat]

I've always maintained that Roman hamata had an integrated padded liner rather than a separate subarmalis. The edging on some depictions, such as the Vacheres warrior, is IMO an indication of an integrated liner.

But the hamata is a one-size-fits-all armour (well, more or less). Adding an integrated liner instead of a seperate one would counter that, right? I'd say wearing it over a subarmalis would be more practical.

[Dan Howard]

Modern reenactors forget how much maintenanance is required for any kind of armour when it was worn in the field. Underpadding of all kinds was regularly repaired/replaced as it wore out. Removing armour lining was a regular part of maintenance. It is just as easy to replace an ill fitting liner as it is to replace one that has worn out. We know for a fact that some mail from other cultures and time periods had integrated padded liners; why was it practical for these people and not Romans? Other armours contemporary with the Romans were likely to have had integrated liners such as scale corselets and bronze cuirasses. These armours have had integrated padded liners since the Bronze Age. Padded liners were not unusual - they may have been the norm, which could explain why a lot of armour illustrations seem to show it being worn over regular clothing.

[Nathan Ross]

The edging on some depictions, such as the Vacheres warrior, is IMO an indication of an integrated liner.

We've discussed this before, I know. But I still haven't seen any 'edging' on Roman mail except for the edging on the shoulder doubler which appears on the Vacheres warrior and (perhaps?) a couple of other places. (This may indeed suggest that the doubler was backed with something and the mail fastened on top - which doesn't sound that dissimilar to my suggestion above!)

On the contrary, many fragments of Roman mail are edged with a couple of rows of butted copper-alloy rings, surely a decorative feature which would be obscured by a leather edging.

So, despite these 'integral liners' being used occasionally in other eras (along with all sorts of other unmentionable things!) I don't see any evidence or need for the Romans to have used them.

[Renatus]

I've always maintained that Roman hamata had an integrated padded liner rather than a separate subarmalis. The edging on some depictions, such as the Vacheres warrior, is IMO an indication of an integrated liner.

Having looked at several images of the Vacheres warrior from all angles online, it seems clear to me that the only edging visible is that on the shoulder doubling. This tells us nothing about what may have lain under the mail shirt itself and certainly cannot be used as evidence of an integrated liner.