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Marcus Artorius Silvanus · 03-28-2005, 06:29 PM

Ave, 
 
I was wondering, the trim that many clothes have, especially from the late roman/byzantine period, what would be good ways to duplicate them without weaving them on a loom? 
 
I've found dozens of sites talking about all sorts of clothing, but when it comes to the trim (the clavi and segmentae), very little is said about the reconstruction of it. 
 
Are there any good ready made trims out there that could be sewn on? Are there ways to weave it into existing tunics? And where could I find some good information on the appearances of various types of trim used, including appropriate colors? 
 
Thanks

03-28-2005, 10:01 PM

Marcus, 
 
Right now I am going with plain clavi and segmentae. Let me know if you find a source I wouldn't mind some fancy smancy trim for my linen tunic. 
 
Also feel free to check out my late roman yahoo group below. Valete, 
Dave/Cicero 
 
QUI DESIDERAT PACEM PRAEPARAT BELLUM 
 
www.freewebs.com/seguntienses/index.htm

Theodosius the Great · 03-29-2005, 12:44 AM

Ave, Marcus. 
 
Here's the trim I use : 
 
<img src="http://www.pillagedvillage.com/intpvonline/images/bigpics/Trim-066r.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
It's called "Byzantine Octagonal". 
 
You can buy it here : 
 
[url=http://www.pillagedvillage.com/cgi-bin/intpvonline/Trim_066.html" target="top]www.pillagedvillage.com/cgi-bin/intpvonline/Trim_066.html[/url] 
 
Good luck with your tunic . 
-Theo

aitor iriarte · 03-29-2005, 07:21 AM

And don't forget thet the overall pattern is as important as the trims are... 
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tribunus/Unbelted.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
Aitor Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=aitoririarte>Aitor Iriarte</A> at: 3/29/05 9:21 am

03-29-2005, 01:19 PM

In my opinion Aitor's tunic is the best reconstruction by a re-enactor of a late Roman tunic that I have ever seen. Not only is the decoration correct, it is based on the earliest example of its type from Palmyra but the way the sleeves narrow to-wards the wrists is also accurately represented. 
 
Although tunics with wide sleeves certainly existed the versions used by soldiers, as depicted in various types of Roman art, always show sleeves that are very tight fitting around the wrist. Perhaps there is a practical explanation for this. 
 
I am very envious of Aitor and wish he would supply me with a version. He is also very modest as his cloak is one of the best reconstructions too!

Marcus Artorius Silvanus · 03-29-2005, 03:23 PM

Yeah I agree the plan for the tunic is vitally important. I would imagine the width of the body should be rather generous correct? Perhaps not as much as 1st or 2nd c tunics, but more than modern shirts, right? 
 
As for the trim... I've used pillaged village once before, when I was creating a 5th c Irish persona and my wife, a 5th c german, so I know their trim and it is rather good, but I didn't know how good it is as for historical accuracy, such as the patterns and material its made of. 
 
But, with regards to the round and square segmentae, where could you get any trip to replicate those?

Marcus Artorius Silvanus · 03-29-2005, 03:27 PM

Another thing I wanted to ask about trim. 
 
Painting. I heard of a person that painted their trim onto their tunic. They claimed that this was done on occassion. Was it? And how could you do it to look good, without it flaking off or looking all shiney and well, painted?

03-29-2005, 07:13 PM

Regarding round and square segmentae: 
 
Could you possibly use tapestry fabric and find roundel or square patterns that you just snip out of the overall fabric? 
 
May give the best overall effect of 'weaving' as was previously stated on another thread? Trick would be to match those with the clavi pieces...now if I only knew how to find something like that I'd be rich! Rich I say!! 
 
 
 
Britannicus

Theodosius the Great · 03-30-2005, 09:38 AM

Marcus, 
 
Quote:<hr>As for the trim... I've used pillaged village once before,so I know their trim and it is rather good, but I didn't know how good it is as for historical accuracy, such as the patterns and material its made of.<hr> 
 
As far as the pattern goes, I'm sure it's the best that's available "off the shelf". 
 
Quote:<hr>Painting. I heard of a person that painted their trim onto their tunic. They claimed that this was done on occassion. Was it? And how could you do it to look good, without it flaking off or looking all shiney and well, painted? <hr> 
 
I'm not sure, but I think Aitor used paint for all his clavii and roundels. If true, that's quite a feat. Actually, regardless of how he did it, it is a great feat . 
 
I've been looking into the possibility of using elaborate stencils to paint patterns onto my roundels. On ebay I found several that might work. As for the paint, I'm sure there's special fabric paint that doesn't shine. 
 
 
Gaius, 
 
Quote:<hr>Could you possibly use tapestry fabric and find roundel or square patterns that you just snip out of the overall fabric? <hr> 
 
Have you seen Metellus' impression ? His roundels and clavii are made from tapestry. 
 
[url=http://p200.ezboard.com/fromanarmytalkfrm4.showMessageRange?topicID=1100.topic&start=121&stop=140" target="top]p200.ezboard.com/fromanarmytalkfrm4.showMessageRange?topicID=1100.topic&start=121&stop=140[/url] 
 
-Theo <img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/RCasti998/CHI-RO2.jpg" style="border:0;"/>

aitor iriarte · 03-30-2005, 10:34 AM

Thanks for your kind words, Graham! 
Anyway I must admit that my tunic is only correct in shape and design but the materials are only one stop-gap more... 
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tribunus/Belted.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
No, I didn't paint the decorative patches on my tunic. I just made corrected drawings in black ink of one orbiculus, one clavus, one neck trim and one pair of cuff bands, taken from one Palmyrene tunic (IMHO, the dating of this tunic during the second century AD, just because the colective tomb was constructed during that century, is a sheer mistake). Second step was to scan them and change the colour to purple (plus resizing the smaller, lower orbiculi and making mirror images for the clavi). Third step, if you're rich, serigraphy, if not, photocopies on heat transfers, like I've already done three times. 
Problems: 
1. My tunic is made of cotton. Cotton was widely know in Roman times but it was extremely expensive. Well, I play the tribune and I can pay for it, but NCO's and soldiers made it do with wool and linen. 
2. The real way of maikng the decorative patches was by tapestry weave while the complete tunic was being woven. I've found one fragmentary tunic from Egypt at the Ravenna Museum, which had patches not woven but resist dyed (a technique used in Roman times mainly for hangings, they just protected the areas of the fabric intended to remain white and then dyed it). Therefore, the close appearance of my tunic is not unauthentic but surely somebody as rich as to pay for a cotton tunic would have had it decorated by tapestry... 
3. After several washings, the colour starts to fade away, but you only need to have replacement tunics prepared. 
The Foederati in France have chosen to embroider by hand their tunics and they look equally handsome (The orbiculi on my cloak are machine embroidered) but the original patches were flush with the rest of the fabric and didn't protrude from it. 
Conclusion: If we could find somebody able to weave decorated tunics in the correct, authentic way, which is already extremely difficult, we wouldn't be able to afford it, not even in our wildest dreams! 
Use a correct pattern for the tunic and the patches and choose the stop-gap method you like best... 
 
Aitor 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=aitoririarte>Aitor Iriarte</A> at: 3/30/05 12:37 pm

Marcus Artorius Silvanus · 03-30-2005, 03:48 PM

Ah so painting is an option...as are a myraid of other choices huh? Guess as long as it looks good, looks accurate, it doesnt matter how you get them on there? 
 
I was thinking, since I'm a bit of an artist anyway, of just painting on the trim and such. Just need to head to the local craft store. 
 
Marcus Artorius

Theodosius the Great · 03-30-2005, 04:38 PM

Marcus, 
 
Quote:<hr>as are a myraid of other choices huh? Guess as long as it looks good, looks accurate, it doesnt matter how you get them on there?<hr> 
 
As Aitor said, unless you're very well-off, most people cannot afford to use 'authentic' methods of reconstructing this type of tunic. 
 
 
Quote:<hr>I was thinking, since I'm a bit of an artist anyway, of just painting on the trim and such. Just need to head to the local craft store.<hr> 
 
Yes, I think Arbogast used that method. You can see his photo here : [url=http://p200.ezboard.com/fromanarmytalkfrm4.showMessageRange?topicID=1100.topic&start=1&stop=20" target="top]p200.ezboard.com/fromanarmytalkfrm4.showMessageRange?topicID=1100.topic&start=1&stop=20[/url]

aitor iriarte · 03-31-2005, 05:10 AM

Theo, 
Arbogast's tunic is hand-embroidered. He is the leader of the Foederati. 
 
Aitor

Theodosius the Great · 03-31-2005, 09:16 AM

Quote:<hr>Arbogast's tunic is hand-embroidered<hr> 
 
 
 
I stand corrected 
 
Then I just don't remember who painted their tunic.

Marcus Artorius Silvanus · 03-31-2005, 06:35 PM

Okay, so hand embrodiery is an option as well? 
 
But with weaving and looms...don't suppose anyone knows of any good sights about building looms? Might be able to talk my wife into weaving a tunic (yeah right ), but it might be a project we could do together down the road... 
 
Marcus Artorius

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