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Trajan vs Christians?
#1
A while ago, I got an unusual request for research help:<br>
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"I'm doing research on Trajan and the Italian War, in specific, the battles of Marignano and Pavia. Could you give me some ideas about why the Battle of Marignano was called the battle of giants? And also, do you know of a speech made by Trajan to the defeated Christians that justified his power over them?"<br>
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This was my response to the inquirer:<br>
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"Dear X, I can find no evidence in my sources for either of these battles nor can I find any hint that Trajan fought a battle against a Christian force.<br>
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"Trajan was actually quite moderate in his dealings with Christians; he advised the governor Pliny, who wrote him for advice on what to do about Christians who refused to honor the Emperor in religious ceremonies, that Pliny should pardon those who had denied the Emperor's divinity if they later recanted, that he should not listen to anonymous accusations labelling others as Christians, that he should NOT seek out Christians to persecute.<br>
<br>
"However, if they did publicly reveal themselves and then refused to comply with Roman law -- that is, to honor the Emperor alongside one's other gods -- only then should they be punished, and severely so. The Romans did not tolerate reckless disregard of Roman law, which they considered would<br>
lead to social disorder and a breakdown in Roman cultural values.<br>
<br>
"I hope this is helpful. If you like, come to our discussion group ( pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk ) and inquire further. I'm sure the members would be very interested to hear more about where you learned of these battles."<br>
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Can anyone besides me offer some insight into this historical mystery? Have I missed some important chapter of Roman history?<br>
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Cheers,<br>
Jenny<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Cheers,
Jenny
Founder, Roman Army Talk and RomanArmy.com

We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best we can find in our travels is an honest friend.
-- Robert Louis Stevenson
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#2
Uh, it seems like that guy is real confused. As far as I know, Trajan never fought a campaign in Italy, because he did not have to participate in a Civil War of any sort.<br>
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What he is probably talking about took place in the early 16th century, in a series of wars known as the Italian war between Charles V (Spain & Austria) and Fracois I (France). The reason it was called the Clash of Giants had much to do with Charles V's inheritance, being nearly all of Cathloc Europe aside from Poland, while Francois was among the first French kings to inherit nearly all of what we consider France. So, when they fought in Northern Italy, it was the 2 biggest boys on the block going at it.<br>
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WWB <p></p><i></i>
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#3
Ave, Imperatrix!<br>
Well, this IS odd--I think we're talking about 16th century battles, here. Grabbed a copy of Brassey's Battles and looked them up. Marignano, Sept. 13-14, 1575, was indeed called "Battle of Giants", apparently because of the big names involved. French under Francis I fighting Swiss troops under Pope Leo X, Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian, and King Ferdinand of Spain. Sounds like rough fight, heavy casualties.<br>
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Pavia is interesting because there are SIX of them! Pavia I, 271 AD, Aurelian smashes Germans.<br>
Pavia II, August 476 (aha!), Odoacer beats Roman Orestes and goes on to depose Romulus Augustulus, last Western Roman Emperor.<br>
Pavia III, 569-572, Lombards starve the city of Pavia into surrender in 3-year siege.<br>
Pavia IV, 773-774, Charlemagne takes Pavia from Lombards.<br>
Pavia V, 1431, river battle between Venetian and Milanese galleys.<br>
Pavia VI, 1525, French get thumped by Germans.<br>
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Oops, someone beat me to the reply! But yeah, not much connection here to Trajan. And this "speech to the defeated Christians" is nothing that I've ever heard of, though I haven't really studied Trajan. Clarification is needed!<br>
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Valete,<br>
Matthew/Quintus, Leg.XX <p></p><i></i>
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#4
Hmmmm! Well, your insights go a long way towards explaining the mystery. Looks like the inquirer thought this was the Roman _Catholic_ Military History board -- E EM Anyway, I can't imagine how poor Trajan got mixed up in all of this, but I rather wonder how the person did on their homework? <br>
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Cheers,<br>
<br>
Jenny <p></p><i></i>
Cheers,
Jenny
Founder, Roman Army Talk and RomanArmy.com

We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best we can find in our travels is an honest friend.
-- Robert Louis Stevenson
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