09-16-2016, 02:19 PM
I have no clue how to quote you by section like we used to be able to do on here, so what you wrote will be in quotes:
"No I don't. I am thoroughly familiar with it, as you might expect
Tend to mostly agree with it, except for the last part, mostly on the last page. There you describe an imaginary phase of battle, for which there is no evidence whatever, whereby individual files press forward in 'othismos', a crowd-like state, instigated by the 'ouragos/file closer' at the rear. I always laugh at this point at the thought of the front rank/promachoi, who are the Officer file leaders/lochagoi, and the best men in the phalanx, as all the manuals agree [e.g. Arrian Tactica 12 "the brawniest and strongest, those most experienced in warfare....which holds together the whole phalanx....the cutting edge"] finding themselves suddenly and unexpectedly propelled forward remorselessly onto the points of their opponent's weapons, no doubt kicking and screaming, by the grinning squaddies behind them in an ancient form of 'fragging'."
See, that is how I know you did not read the 2011 paper sufficiently- it updates the 2007 paper which you are thinking of. I clearly state that othismos is started by the Promachoi, supported naturally by the man behind him as he pushes on his foe while sword fighting with his free arm. Men in file simply add their weight forward each in turn until the whole file is involved. The ouragos is the Last man involved. He is also the only one who has full freedom of movement and can run away if he wants to unhindered- thus he must be a steady man.
"You have always been short on the mechanics of how this co-ordinated pushing/leaning could be achieved, which you say is done by 'Taxeis'/units, and by individual files. At least you recognise "the difficulty [impossibility?] in co-ordinating such deep files of men to push in unison." And the files are not so deep, for the evidence suggests fighting was in half-files 4-6 deep."
This is not up for argument any longer. We did this! even with 4 men substantially more force is generated than any single man can generate and maintain. What you quote above is about deep files, and this turned out to be true too. After 12 men, the difficulty coordinating means each new man adds only a fraction of his body weight.
"Well we can certainly agree the latter point, though in your 2011 article and later you say things such as: "The crowding of 'Othismos' and periods of active intense pushing could last for a long time...." implying that co-ordinated pushing or leaning could take place while in a disorganised crowd jostling and shoving one another - a rather obvious contradiction."
Not at all, this is exactly what happens when people die in crowd disasters. The surely was a period of close up shield on shield sword fighting that could get tighter and become othismos.
"Well, Grasshopper, you have come a long way from your initial hypothesis that hoplite battle was all 'othismos/shoving', to a point where you now recognise that few battles were 'deadlocked', and that your supposed co-ordinated pushing would only take place as a last resort in such cases. Soon you will come to accept that it simply never occurred at all as a deliberate tactic ( I don't say that 'othismos'/jostling and shoving didn't ever occur, just not deliberately)."
Early on it surely was not a deliberate tactic. It happens in all close combat- it happened in a minor way at Zama. The difference is that with an aspis you could survive such a crush and maintain it- thus weaponize it. I don't think the Greeks ever had a "tactic" of othismos. I don't think they trained for it specifically by tree humping etc. It was something that could occur in close combat, and the aspis allowed them to survive it, which in turn allowed them to push even more. I think only in the late 5thc do we see this phase of battle being specifically thought of ahead of time with a deepening of ranks.
"[Digression: Just as the British Public school classicists saw familiar 'Rugby ' analogies, are you not echoing this, given your 'Gridiron' experience, when you envisage an unevidenced change of stance from the well-evidenced three-quarter stance to a square on stance, with shield flat across the chest like a 'lineman's' pushing stance? ]
"
This is true, my experience on the line in football games told me that the whole concept of pushing side-on is wrong, but it is my study of self-organized systems and crowd disasters that show the true mechanics of how crowds generate force, and it is different that either rugby or football.
"No I don't. I am thoroughly familiar with it, as you might expect
Tend to mostly agree with it, except for the last part, mostly on the last page. There you describe an imaginary phase of battle, for which there is no evidence whatever, whereby individual files press forward in 'othismos', a crowd-like state, instigated by the 'ouragos/file closer' at the rear. I always laugh at this point at the thought of the front rank/promachoi, who are the Officer file leaders/lochagoi, and the best men in the phalanx, as all the manuals agree [e.g. Arrian Tactica 12 "the brawniest and strongest, those most experienced in warfare....which holds together the whole phalanx....the cutting edge"] finding themselves suddenly and unexpectedly propelled forward remorselessly onto the points of their opponent's weapons, no doubt kicking and screaming, by the grinning squaddies behind them in an ancient form of 'fragging'."See, that is how I know you did not read the 2011 paper sufficiently- it updates the 2007 paper which you are thinking of. I clearly state that othismos is started by the Promachoi, supported naturally by the man behind him as he pushes on his foe while sword fighting with his free arm. Men in file simply add their weight forward each in turn until the whole file is involved. The ouragos is the Last man involved. He is also the only one who has full freedom of movement and can run away if he wants to unhindered- thus he must be a steady man.
"You have always been short on the mechanics of how this co-ordinated pushing/leaning could be achieved, which you say is done by 'Taxeis'/units, and by individual files. At least you recognise "the difficulty [impossibility?] in co-ordinating such deep files of men to push in unison." And the files are not so deep, for the evidence suggests fighting was in half-files 4-6 deep."
This is not up for argument any longer. We did this! even with 4 men substantially more force is generated than any single man can generate and maintain. What you quote above is about deep files, and this turned out to be true too. After 12 men, the difficulty coordinating means each new man adds only a fraction of his body weight.
"Well we can certainly agree the latter point, though in your 2011 article and later you say things such as: "The crowding of 'Othismos' and periods of active intense pushing could last for a long time...." implying that co-ordinated pushing or leaning could take place while in a disorganised crowd jostling and shoving one another - a rather obvious contradiction."
Not at all, this is exactly what happens when people die in crowd disasters. The surely was a period of close up shield on shield sword fighting that could get tighter and become othismos.
"Well, Grasshopper, you have come a long way from your initial hypothesis that hoplite battle was all 'othismos/shoving', to a point where you now recognise that few battles were 'deadlocked', and that your supposed co-ordinated pushing would only take place as a last resort in such cases. Soon you will come to accept that it simply never occurred at all as a deliberate tactic ( I don't say that 'othismos'/jostling and shoving didn't ever occur, just not deliberately)."
Early on it surely was not a deliberate tactic. It happens in all close combat- it happened in a minor way at Zama. The difference is that with an aspis you could survive such a crush and maintain it- thus weaponize it. I don't think the Greeks ever had a "tactic" of othismos. I don't think they trained for it specifically by tree humping etc. It was something that could occur in close combat, and the aspis allowed them to survive it, which in turn allowed them to push even more. I think only in the late 5thc do we see this phase of battle being specifically thought of ahead of time with a deepening of ranks.
"[Digression: Just as the British Public school classicists saw familiar 'Rugby ' analogies, are you not echoing this, given your 'Gridiron' experience, when you envisage an unevidenced change of stance from the well-evidenced three-quarter stance to a square on stance, with shield flat across the chest like a 'lineman's' pushing stance? ]
"This is true, my experience on the line in football games told me that the whole concept of pushing side-on is wrong, but it is my study of self-organized systems and crowd disasters that show the true mechanics of how crowds generate force, and it is different that either rugby or football.
