Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms

[JaM]

So then Ennius is better source for this matter than Vegetius writing hundreds of years later i suppose.  plus, "Hastati sparung hastas..." is way to specific to be ignored, is it?


reg farmers, yes, i'm from a farmer family btw even though here in Eastern Europe, farming was destroyed during comunism. but when it fell, some returned to it,but its no longer as big thing. Yet its kinda a synonymum here to have a back problems due to working on the fields whole day.. also remember the saying that "working on fields is the fastest way how to get old"..

and regarding pre-Marian/post-Marian (didnt realize i have to be so punctual here) my intent was to point out the difference between Levied Legions, and Professional legions of late Republic. Yes, Marius was not responsible for professionalization, it was ongoing process for years, but still he is taken as some kind of a reformator who put all those practices together and made them a law. but again, not that important for the point i was trying to make with the proffesional and Levy troops difference.

maybe next time i will call them Caesarean and Scipio legions, or Marcellus legions or whatever consul name from that times instead... what the hell, even Romans recognized years by the Consuls, so why not use it today, right?

[Bryan]

So then Ennius is better source for this matter than Vegetius writing hundreds of years later i suppose.  plus, "Hastati sparung hastas..." is way to specific to be ignored, is it?


maybe next time i will call them Caesarean and Scipio legions, or Marcellus legions or whatever consul name from that times instead... what the hell, even Romans recognized years by the Consuls, so why not use it today, right?

Velites threw Hastae velitares. So we know that hasta didn't just mean spear, it also meant javelin, and it likely could also have been used in a generalized sense by some, possibly to include pila javelins. Besides, Ennius was a poet, he's trying to be poetic, not literal. 

Call the professionalized legions what you want, just don't call them part of the Marian Reforms. Its one of those internet-isms that just needs to die already.

[JaM]

yes, he was a poet, but also a soldier... many ancient Historians weren't.. so his poetism is most likely more accurate than many prose's from Livy for example...

Call the professionalized legions what you want, just don't call them part of the Marian Reforms. Its one of those internet-isms that just needs to die already.

fine with me actually.. i was never a fan of that claim about reforms.. especially when many things that are credited to him were already used many times before.. Others would deserve a name Reformator a lot more..

[Nathan Ross]

Legionaries in the time of Caesar, were military professionals... Pre-Marian Militia/levy men, who were not professional soldiers, but ordinary farmers who spent their lives working in the field, and occasionally went to war

I would think the troops of Caesar's veteran legions by the end of the civil wars, after 15 years of near-constant campaigning, were probably among the toughest and most experienced soldiers ever fielded by Rome.

However, we shouldn't assume that the soldiers of the earlier Republic were all that occasional - Spurius Ligustinus may have been exceptional, but his example proves that long service was certainly possible in the 2nd century BC.

Also, the vast majority of Romans of any means owned slaves (which is presumably how they kept their farms running while they were away at war) - a 'Roman farmer' wouldn't be doing all the hard work himself!

[Bryan]

Are you suggesting that the velite's javelin wasn't called a hastae velitares? What about Pliny? Was he wrong too? If hasta refers to more than just a spear meant for fighting, and since poets are well known to use "poetic license", then hastati throwing hastae during the 2nd Punic War might also just refer to them throwing javelins, or pila (book VIII covers the 2nd Punic War, its well established that by that point the Hastati had pila).

[JaM]

no, im suggesting Hastati might have used it as well before Pilum was adopted.. therefore got the name off it.

Ennius was not ordinary poet.. he was a soldier, he would know first hand what Hastati are hurling.. even today, guys with military background would not usually use incorrect military terms just because of artistic license.. they would definitely use correct words they know.. its part of theirs military pride.. im also a member at tanknet.org, and can tell you, former military guys can be even quite touchy if you confuse some terms... call some tank with different nomenclature than it was, and they will get angry so yeah, i'm more inclined to believe what a former Legionarii wrote about his service, than some historian who lived hundreds of years back and wrote about stuff he only read somewhere else.. and there is a question of quality of a transcript, as many historical texts were "adjusted" by medieval monks that transcribed original texts, without actual knowledge of terms they are writing about.. (at least i've been told before of such thing)

[Bryan]

The Ennius reference was for the 2nd Punic War period, long after the Hasta had abandoned the hasta spear. That at some point Hastati carried an actual spear is probable, though since hasta also refers to javelins (per Livy and Pliny), Hastati could have been named for the javelins they threw. There is no way to be sure.

[JaM]

actually, carrying a thrusting spear for somebody who should be using also a heavy javelin seems quite problematic for me - especially, if he also uses heavy shield with central grip -  you have just two hands, so if you have a shield in one arm, then you need to carry hasta and javelin in another arm together.. maybe not a problem, but why not just carry two javelins like this all along? Scutum was supposed to have horisontal handle, which also means you couldnt hold it, and another javelin together, for that you would need vertical grip. but maybe you could strap extra javelins to the shield somehow..

If we asume that Hasta was similar to dory, it means it was about 1.3-1.4kg heavy, while Pilum weight from what I saw so far could be about 1.2-1.5kg as well. yet its most likely the shanks that would be a problem holding them together in one hand...

plus, the only reference to a spear use i remember reading, was from Pyrrhus wars, yet that was for Principes, and they didnt use it in one arm, but are described to grab them in both arms, which means they would have to drop the shield for it... why would they do such thing is suspicious... my guess, it could be something done temporarily, let say trying to fend off elephants.. in such case, you really need a longer reach, and shield wont help you much anyway...



and there is another point in this, that ancients might not differentiate that strictly between javelin and a spear as we do... they could just call everything a hasta.. even Pilum could be used as a spear in emergencies..

---

or another possibility would be that Hastati hurled whatever they got eventually... they disposed of their Pila, then, could be ressuplied with whatever javelins they still had somewhere.. even Hasta Velitaris.. or would throw whatever javelins enemy throw at them..

---

btw, is there any agreement or work made about when Pilum was adopted? Remember reading somewhere it might be an originally Etruscan weapon? but then, some historians think it could be copied off the Iberian Iron javelins?

[Bryan]

Carrying a spare pilum or hasta in the left hand with the scutum is not difficult, just grip with the the thumb as shown below. Its not something you want to do long distance, but short periods its very easy. If you need to carry two pole arms long distance just carry them on the right shoulder gripping both with the right hand.

[JaM]

btw, not sure if it was already covered here somewhere, but what would be the usual formation depth for post-Marian Cohorts? Early Republican Maniples are usually with two centuries behind each other, yet with Cohort and 6 centuries there are multiple options i would guess. Gary Bruggeman suggested 8 rank deep formations for a century, and 3x2 centuries placement in cohort. Are there any other works out there worth checking?

[Bryan]

There really isn't enough detailed information about Late Republican or later battles to really answer how deep they customary fought.

At Pharsalus, Pompey's first line was 10 deep, to match the length of his line, Caesar's understrength cohorts would have been at no more than 4 ranks deep.

More info about other secondary sources here.
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/thread-24957.html

[Timus]

btw, not sure if it was already covered here somewhere, but what would be the usual formation depth for post-Marian Cohorts? Early Republican Maniples are usually with two centuries behind each other, yet with Cohort and 6 centuries there are multiple options i would guess. Gary Bruggeman suggested 8 rank deep formations for a century, and 3x2 centuries placement in cohort. Are there any other works out there worth checking?

A quick note, but prior and posterior is somewhat more likely to relate to the order in which the centurions were elected(/selected?) than their position in the line. Polybius is fairly clear, they fight side by side with each centurion leading his own "side". I think Taylor makes a point along those lines in his recent paper on democracy within the republican army.
To me, in a late republican "reformed" legion, there are more hints for a 6 century side by side deployment than for other types. Though I think Speidel has a paper that suggest otherwise based on centurial symbols. 

You may also want to check Roman Infantry Tactics in the mid republic: a reassessment  by Taylor. It focuses on the mid republic but there are references to later periods. https://www.academia.edu/1602947/Roman_I...assessment
And also https://www.academia.edu/22819197/Tactic...rsion_2.0_

[JaM]

yeah, funny part is, that if you try to do this in game, let say Rome 2, then you end up with two possibilities - 6 rank or 8 rank formation. 6-rank, wider one is great in defense, as enemy will not surround it that easily as it will with 8-rank formation, but at the other side, 8 rank formation can change directions very easily, which has a huge advantage actually..

In all my mods so far, i always try to simulate base military principles, as far as game allows it. For example in R2, base game allows you just move one unit through another without any issues or penalties - in reality, such a thing would be impossible, and would just disorganize both units making them easy to defeat. One of changes i made was to not allow such thing (by adjusting the entity spacing etc). Anyway, with this limitation, if you want to maneuver your century into best fighting position, and not end up mingling with own nearby units and disorganize them, its very useful to be able to maneuver with the unit fast. And its quite obvious that deep formation can change direction of movement much better than shallow one. Longer the line is, worse it is to turn it somewhere.. (which is why for example Napoleonic infantry always maneuvered within column)

So, my point with all of this is, that i would probably want to have my maniples organized with centuries in column (one behind other) when i'm attacking, but would rather have my centuries next to each other in defense. Longer your line is, more problematic it gets to maneuver on battlefield. If you wanna control your unit best, you would want them in a square/column, as they can still fight, but they can also move more efficiently.

what are your thoughts?

[Bryan]

If you are putting your centuries into columns while attacking you are removing a significant amount of their combat power, because few will actually be able to attack the enemy. Putting them into line increases the number of combatants that will actually engage an enemy force. If you have a force that formed up eight ranks deep, besides throwing pila, most wont be able to participate in the battle. If you have that same force and reform them four ranks deep they will cover more ground and have more bodies in the front ranks, meaning more combat power.

The Roman gaps in their battle lines are what made them easier to maneuver. Maniples and centuries merely needed to stay abreast of one another while marching instead of being perfectly lined up, which is difficult in rough ground or with natural boundaries (creeks, gullies, trees, bushes, fences, etc.). While marching into battle, for control, it would be easiest to either have the maniples in column (prior in lead, posterior behind), and then reformed into maniples on line (prior right, post. left) just before engaging. Or they could move out in maniple on line on the march, already in the rank and file they intend to fight it, and then open the maniples (increase space between rank and file to Polybius' description), which would decrease the size of the gaps between the forces and give individual legionaires the room to throw pila and fight dynamically with sword and shield as the sources describe.

The reality is that formation is dependent on the mission, enemy, terrain, and troops available, among other things.

[JaM]

amount of men fighting depends also on enemy you are facing.. that's why usually Romans adjusted the depth of formation to the enemy line, instead of spreading out and outflanking them.

Anyway, my point was mostly to the unit control portion.Its easier to control a square, than a line at movement. Of course Romans didnt kept perfect line like Napoleonic infantry, but its worth mentioning that 3 rank formation typical for 18-19.century was practically unable to move farther than 100m without need to redress the ranks. So even if you are not keeping the perfect lines, and you allow men marching on their own terms, you still want to get into contact at the same time as other units, so some sort of line had to be kept anyway (not questioning the gaps)

Also, with the whole century in reserve, you have option to replace the tired century for a fresh one during a lul, and continue the fight with the fresh men. For Pila sake, i think its not that big deal that not all of them could use it at charge, as if they really had 2x larger spacing than Phalangites, it means they would have enough of space using Pila thorough the whole engagement, not necessarily as entire unit, but more like individual men supporting those fighting with occasional throw (or legionaries in second rank could use the heavy pila Thrand style against enemy fighting with the front rank) while even men in second rank maniple, positioned against the gap of units in front row, could eventually throw their pila at enemy entering the gap, making it a place where you can outflank the enemy from three sides practically..


Anyway, i recall Gary Bruggeman mentioning the Illerda ridge, where Caesar fitted three cohorts, and he suggested it would be only possible to fit three cohorts there, if they were in 6 ranks.


one thing unrelated - just reading the "Etruscan Identity and Service in the Roman Army" paper from Michael J Taylor, and he mentioned interesting thing - per him Etruscans called their Class 1 ditissimi, dunatōtatoi, principes...