[split] Phalanx warfare: use of the spear

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I think this is beyond the evidence. It is a possibility though.

After all, the Tegeans were not fighting on a shield wall before charging, they were probably crouching behind their shields being out of range of their own javelins, which they probably didn't have at that age, and sustaining casualties from Persian archers, waiting for Pausanias to give the order.

[Paul Bardunias]

I think this is beyond the evidence. It is a possibility though.

After all, the Tegeans were not fighting on a shield wall before charging, they were probably crouching behind their shields being out of range of their own javelins, which they probably didn't have at that age, and sustaining casualties from Persian archers, waiting for Pausanias to give the order.

I agree.  I don't think the Tegeans were equipped to act as a shield wall, only that for whatever reason, they did not act as a phalanx and charge.  The moment they did the whole battle changed.  The supremacy of phalanx over sheild wall was the result.

[JaM]

back to the overarm grip, Paul, i spend a lot of time trying to test your grip, but must say, it is completely unusable to hold the spear like that while striking a target.. your little finger would be under way too much stress from such thrusting, which gets painful quite fast. Therefore that posture, is definitely not something you would want to practice in combat, where you actually want to hit somebody, which means, actual findings made by Chris Matthew in his book still stands - overarm thrust with spear held in the back, cannot achieve same level of reach than high underarm thrust.

Anyway of course it doesn't mean that they would not use spears overarm in combat, but i would tend to believe front rank would use spear underarm for initial clash to get the most of the spear length, then they would move to overarm, as both lines get closer.

Now probably most important question is from what time heavy sauroter started to appear, and what was its development in regards to spear length.. that could tell quite a lot about their actual tactic development..

[Paul Bardunias]

back to the overarm grip, Paul, i spend a lot of time trying to test your grip, but must say, it is completely unusable to hold the spear like that while striking a target.. your little finger would be under way too much stress from such thrusting, which gets painful quite fast.  Therefore that posture, is definitely not something you would want to practice in combat, where you actually want to hit somebody, which means, actual findings made by Chris Matthew in his book still stands - overarm thrust with spear held in the back, cannot achieve same level of reach than high underarm thrust.

Anyway of course it doesn't mean that they would not use spears overarm in combat, but i would tend to believe front rank would use spear underarm for initial clash to get the most of the spear length, then they would move to overarm, as both lines get closer.

Now probably most important question is from what time heavy sauroter started to appear, and what was its development in regards to spear length.. that could tell quite a lot about their actual tactic development..

You are still not understanding this.  It is difficult sometimes without visuals.  You do not use your little finger at all, that was only so that I could hold the spear in place while posing for a picture.  I have taken the time to post some .gifs that I hope explain the proper overhand strike and the way a dory was carried into battle that nullified that whole string of arguments on how to change grip while advancing. Note this is the mirror site to my blog that I use to catch and redirect traffic if it is spelled with a c.

http://hollow-lacedaimon.blogspot.com/


The images should clarify that underhand only has a reach advantage if you plan on holding the spear extended with your arm all the way out.  As you can see from my need to use my pinky to support the shaft you cannot do this with overhand.  But no one in their right mind would do this unless you are A)fending off cavalry or B)playing a game of fighting were the weakest of strikes counts as a "hit".  If you hold your arm out in a static extension you will be knocked aside.  Even sarissaphoroi, who maximized reach, did not stand with their arms extended forward.

[Crispianus]

I have taken the time to post some .gifs that I hope explain the proper overhand strike and the way a dory was carried into battle that nullified that whole string of arguments on how to change grip while advancing.

http://hollow-lacedaimon.blogspot.com/


The images should clarify that underhand only has a reach advantage if you plan on holding the spear extended with your arm all the way out.  As you can see from my need to use my pinky to support the shaft you cannot do this with overhand.  But no one in their right mind would do this unless you are A)fending off cavalry or B)playing a game of fighting were the weakest of strikes counts as a "hit".  If you hold your arm out in a static extension you will be knocked aside.  Even sarissaphoroi, who maximized reach, did not stand with their arms extended forward.

Very Interesting Thanks for taking the trouble, makes perfect sense to me

unfortunatly still cant give ratings +1

[JaM]

i know that Paul, my point is that with underarm, even at maximum reach, you keep firm grip, and actual attack is not weaker. You can still deliver decent hits that way, while having advantage of extended reach, which is impossible with overarm, as you said - due to very weak grip and very weak strike force.

I dont see any reason why frontal rank of a phalanx would not wanna start the contact with enemy in that position, then when enemy gets close, they would just easily move the spear into overarm while second rank could just use underarm over their shield, until again they got close and they would switch to overarm as well.

underarm in that situation gives you about 2.2-2.5m reach (extended arm, sauroter behind the elbow), where overarm gives you 1.5m at best.


oh, and thanks for those gifs, they explain a lot.

[Robert Vermaat]

unfortunatly still cant give ratings +1

I can. Just added +1.

[Paul Bardunias]

i know that Paul, my point is that with underarm, even at maximum reach, you keep firm grip, and actual attack is not weaker. You can still deliver decent hits that way, while having advantage of extended reach, which is impossible with overarm, as you said - due to very weak grip and very weak strike force.

underarm in that situation gives you about 2.2-2.5m reach (extended arm, sauroter behind the elbow), where overarm gives you 1.5m at best.

I don't know now if you are just being obstinate, or if something is still unclear.  In the gifs you can easily see that when my arm is extended forward it can be parallel to the ground at maximum reach. If the shaft is gripped at the same place( as you see in the video I am holding it whereMathew does) and in both cases the arm in parallel to the ground, then you have EXACTLY the SAME reach!

Your comparative reach measurements are just made up.  I showed you actual measurements where even before the spear is fully extended the reach difference was slight. Your description of maximum reach and the ability to hold the shaft tight is only important if you are NOT moving the shaft. Id the shaft is actively propelled forward, then overhand has the same reach. It just can't hold it there- which would be stupid anyway.

As for the strike being weak, I and at least three published papers have now told you it is not and I have told you what Mathew obviously did wrong in using an icepick like strike.  All of these are facts.  I think you simply have a view in mind and refuse to face facts.  If those gifs don't convince you that mthews used the wrong overhand strike, I got nothing else.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

An experienced fighter does not want to keep the enemy at maximum distance, he wants to get close and personal and finish the job. This is not a theory, this is what medieval pole arm fighting manuals describe.
Of course medieval pole arms were handled with two hands, and they didn't need to move the point of balance backwards, this is why Greek spears are considerably longer, SOME times, because one needs to have some reach while holding it with one hand.

You may argue now that pole arms have nothing to do with how hoplites fought, and you may be right, but then rennaissance spear fighting with big round domed shields suggest to ALWAYS use your spear overhand...

Once a friend who is familiar with medieval spear and shield fighting in arguing about the real length of the Hoplite spear asked, "why is it so long?!" Experienced fighters do not fear to get close to their enemy, in fact it is a necessary process in order to kill them.

This is for experienced hoplites though, archaic and classical aristocrats in the first rank, who only care in their lives about their physical beauty and military prowess, for they have all their other problems solved.

Need to form a new army by bringing down to the plains farm boys from the mountains, who don't even speak the common Greek language? Then give them five meter long sarissas, and spare them the expensive and aristocratic aspis, for they don't even know how to use it, and voila! A cheap, effective phalanx, that can stop, but not beat, the old style hoplites.
There is not one account where the Macedonian phalanx, not even under Alexander, beat the old style phalanx on its own. Actually in their first encounter, in Chaironeia, Philip almost lost, and had the Macedonian cavalry not surrounded the Thebans, the battle would have been lost for Philip.

So the point about which method gives you a few inches more reach is mute.

[JaM]

Paul: i took that 1.5m reach from your blog... its your number, not mine..

By the 5th century, the classical Greek dory, or fighting spear, appears to have been as much as 2.5 m long, but it was effectively longer because a combination of rear weighting and tapering of the shaft moved the center of balance, hence the grip, back to about a third of the way from the bottom. A 2.5 m dory had a reach of over 1.5 m, similar to a 3.3 m mid-balanced spear.

http://hollow-lakedaimon.blogspot.com/

Giannis K. Hoplite: of course polearm were supposed to be used at the long reach.. that was their whole point... if they weren't, these guys would instead use war axes .. but with polearm they prefered to have a reach so they could get at the cavalrymen and force him off his horse... Similarly, in Japan, Ashigaru's used naginatas to have longer reach, katanas were never actually used in battle as primary weapons but as mere sidearm...

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Paul, one additional comment to those gifs:  you are standing with both foot at the same position, wasn't the left foot supposed to be forward with right foot in the back, with the oblique post?

[Paul Bardunias]

Paul: i took that 1.5m reach from your blog... its your number, not mine..

By the 5th century, the classical Greek dory, or fighting spear, appears to have been as much as 2.5 m long, but it was effectively longer because a combination of rear weighting and tapering of the shaft moved the center of balance, hence the grip, back to about a third of the way from the bottom. A 2.5 m dory had a reach of over 1.5 m, similar to a 3.3 m mid-balanced spear.

http://hollow-lakedaimon.blogspot.com/

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Paul, one additional comment to those gifs:  you are standing with both foot at the same position, wasn't the left foot be forward with right foot in the back, with the oblique post?

I have no problem with my 1.5m figure, that is a spear held at about a third from the sauroter in either over OR underhand!  If you want 2m with either under or over, you just move the balance point back and can still use either grip. To get 2.5m of reach, you are holding the tip of the sauroter with your fingertips! because the whole spear is in front of your hand.  In those gifs, I am using my 9' dory shaft, its longer than they used because I am 6'3", but I did not attach the spearhead or sauroter.  Thus in those videos that spear is actually front heavy for where I gripped it and I could still use it just fine.  Note in the gif where I am just jabbing, at the end I was stabbing three times at an imaginary head and the strikes are very consistent.

As to my feet, I am standing obliquely, but I could stand with them further apart to have a more secure base.  This changes nothing because it is the rotation of the torso that dictates reach and I would just have to rotate my hips more to get the same reach.  Most authors have hoplites with the right foot too far back which limits reach.  Which is another things about Mathew's presentation.  If his men don't square their shoulders forward when they strike, then I actually outreach them.

[JaM]

nope,not with fingertips -  with 2.5m spear held underarm with sauroter directly behind the elbow, when you strike, you extend your arm forward, so sauroter gets  into position where its actually front of your torso.. which means, from that perspective, your reach would be 2.5m..


btw, any chance having somebody do the overarm thrusting for extended period of time in full panoply, while hitting some hard target? i think it would be beneficial to get information on fatigue from fighting in that position. I think fatigue aspect is one thing that is most important on C.Matthew theory, as everything else is not as significant.

[Paul Bardunias]

nope,not with fingertips -  with 2.5m spear held underarm with sauroter directly behind the elbow, when you strike, you extend your arm forward, so sauroter gets  into position where its actually front of your torso.. which means, from that perspective, your reach would be 2.5m..

The 1.5m reach is measured from the gripping hand!  Obviosly if I measure from the torso and include the extended arm, then my reach is 2.5m too!!!!!!!  Come on man, work with me on this, look at the gifs.

We have already told you that we have practiced stabbing in panoply with overhand, but you wish not to hear it.

[JaM]

We have already told you that we have practiced stabbing in panoply with overhand, but you wish not to hear it.

I'm looking for more "scientific" approach, with controlled group, striking target, and measuring how long they could perform such thing while in formation. That is what C.Matthew had in his book, and i think that part is one of the most significant out of all things in his book. Because, if he is right, and you cant strike the enemy like this for more than few minutes, while having muscle spasms even 30 minutes after they stopped, then i cant possibly imagine how would they do this for hours in battle..

and i'm not talking about just hitting the thin air, but actually thrusting into some solid object, to be under full stress from making the impact, and performing the full movement while keeping the spear overarm.

And again, as i said before, im not interested into defending some theory to the last breath.. im interested in finding what was most probable tactics used by hoplites.. combat fatigue is very important matter.

[Paul Bardunias]

We have already told you that we have practiced stabbing in panoply with overhand, but you wish not to hear it.

I'm looking for more "scientific" approach, with controlled group, striking target, and measuring how long they could perform such thing while in formation. That is what C.Matthew had in his book, and i think that part is one of the most significant out of all things in his book. Because, if he is right, and you cant strike the enemy like this for more than few minutes, while having muscle spasms even 30 minutes after they stopped, then i cant possibly imagine how would they do this for hours in battle..

and i'm not talking about just hitting the thin air, but actually thrusting into some solid object, to be under full stress from making the impact, and performing the full movement while keeping the spear overarm.

And again, as i said before, im not interested into defending some theory to the last breath.. im interested in finding what was most probable tactics used by hoplites.. combat fatigue is very important matter.

We are back to black swans, because I have told you I can strike at a swinging ball overhand for quite a while, at least a half hour, without suffering some sort of arm failure.  His tests are worthless if his grip was wrong and his men were holding the spear up in the air.  His data is useless.  Useless that is, for anything except pushing an agenda from a preconceived notion.

Bye the way, with a real spear, when you hit a solid object you get stuck. You then have to stop and work the blade out, so this is not a good way to test for stamina.