08-11-2016, 07:58 PM
"and for those 15minutes.. if one group could use spears without any physical reduction in effectivity for more than 15 minutes, and other was completely cnackered after just 5 minutes, i would guess that first group would just walk all over the second group in real fight with ease... fatigue in melee combat is the most important thing.. who can hold longer wins... besides, people are not suicidal.. they would not endanger themselves unnecessarily... they would want to keep the distance from enemy and hit them from safe distance.. only very small percentage of people in population is intentionally suicidal, and would actively search to kill an enemy in a fight.. huge majority would instead, try to keep themselves out of harm, and only then try to hit the enemy... many historical battle descriptions say that huge majority of losses happened when one side broke and tried to run... winning side just butchered whatever they could catch..."
The only muscle group you acknowledged in previous posts having to do with fatigue in battle was the shoulder of the spear carrying arm. Is that it? I asked you "How long was battle sustained hoplite battle? You're stating that the arm couldn't hold up for 15 minutes, are you implying that everything was fine and dandy after 15 minutes of nonstop close quarters battle?" Suicide has nothing to do with anything being discussed, so I can ignore all of that. In the first sentence, the part in bold, it appears you're still implying that when it came to hoplite battle that the shoulder muscle is the only muscle that matters when it comes to fatigue. If this is incorrect, please state so clearly and tell me what muscle groups in a hoplite matter in the 15 minutes of sustained combat you believe they fought. If there are other muscles that can become fatigued, what are these muscles doing in hoplite battle that would make them fatigued?
Also, if a battle lasts longer than 15 minutes, what happens to Matthew's 15 minute rated underarm technique? Do he call it quits? Does anyone call it quits? Are there lulls in your imagined battles or is it nonstop for the start of the clash to however long it takes the battle to end?
Lastly, when it comes to the shaft of a dory, it says some are uniform of 25mm diameter (interesting how he came up with that very specific width). Either way, I googled broomsticks, and guess what? The most common diameter of the five types I checked was 23mm, which is negligible to the 25mm Matthew's states. When it came to both youtube videos I posted earlier, Thrand is using a spear much taller than he is (clearly not a broomstick and its tapered as well), and the ones used by the Greek reenactors are also tapered and a good part taller than their height (which is also longer than a broomstick). So where exactly is your beef with the weapons they are using? The slight difference in dimensions to Matthew's description doesn't negate the information they provided. At most it changes the point of balance a few inches, which again, doesn't negate the information they provided.
The first youtube video shows that an overhand grip makes it easy to parry thrusts of other spears, something not really possible with an underhand grip. The second video demonstrates that with a controversial throwing method of a thrust used with an overhand grip the spear is capable of much more penetration, even against armor. I'm not going to imply the underarm was never used, especially when iconography shows it was, but both those videos lend more evidence of the effectiveness of the overhand method, which is in keeping with the point behind experimental archaeology.
The only muscle group you acknowledged in previous posts having to do with fatigue in battle was the shoulder of the spear carrying arm. Is that it? I asked you "How long was battle sustained hoplite battle? You're stating that the arm couldn't hold up for 15 minutes, are you implying that everything was fine and dandy after 15 minutes of nonstop close quarters battle?" Suicide has nothing to do with anything being discussed, so I can ignore all of that. In the first sentence, the part in bold, it appears you're still implying that when it came to hoplite battle that the shoulder muscle is the only muscle that matters when it comes to fatigue. If this is incorrect, please state so clearly and tell me what muscle groups in a hoplite matter in the 15 minutes of sustained combat you believe they fought. If there are other muscles that can become fatigued, what are these muscles doing in hoplite battle that would make them fatigued?
Also, if a battle lasts longer than 15 minutes, what happens to Matthew's 15 minute rated underarm technique? Do he call it quits? Does anyone call it quits? Are there lulls in your imagined battles or is it nonstop for the start of the clash to however long it takes the battle to end?
Lastly, when it comes to the shaft of a dory, it says some are uniform of 25mm diameter (interesting how he came up with that very specific width). Either way, I googled broomsticks, and guess what? The most common diameter of the five types I checked was 23mm, which is negligible to the 25mm Matthew's states. When it came to both youtube videos I posted earlier, Thrand is using a spear much taller than he is (clearly not a broomstick and its tapered as well), and the ones used by the Greek reenactors are also tapered and a good part taller than their height (which is also longer than a broomstick). So where exactly is your beef with the weapons they are using? The slight difference in dimensions to Matthew's description doesn't negate the information they provided. At most it changes the point of balance a few inches, which again, doesn't negate the information they provided.
The first youtube video shows that an overhand grip makes it easy to parry thrusts of other spears, something not really possible with an underhand grip. The second video demonstrates that with a controversial throwing method of a thrust used with an overhand grip the spear is capable of much more penetration, even against armor. I'm not going to imply the underarm was never used, especially when iconography shows it was, but both those videos lend more evidence of the effectiveness of the overhand method, which is in keeping with the point behind experimental archaeology.
