[split] Phalanx warfare: use of the spear

[Bryan]

lets do it differently..

in your nice red picture, how exactly are you picturing that man in third row would put his spear in overarm? (he has men behind him, and in front of him)... all pictographical evidence shows spearhead being  always up when held vertically, not down...

Lift spear up over head, twist in hands or whatever. 

On the Matthew pictures - third is way too close together... really doubt they would get so close, instead they would be at the distance of the spears. there is no point taking almost 3m long spear, if you wanna fight 30cm away from enemy... (plus, entire notion of long weapons is to keep enemy at bay, not to get into a "fistfight", where dagger would be much more useful)

So you don't think hoplites every actually closed with one another? Are you discounting all the accounts of Othismos?

Mind you that if the hoplite of the army of JaM (finding underhanded) ended up fighting the hoplite army of Bryan (fighting overhanded), my orders would absolutely 100% rely on my force closing the distance as quickly as possible with your army so nullifying your tactics and use of weapons. 

What is shown on the first picture, to me looks like a perfect way how to transfer the energy of entire formation into a spearpoint - you fix the spear with your grip, fix the sauroter against the shield of men behind, and then move like this against the enemy - you would not even need to thrust - just share momentum of the formation would do the work for you - weight of a man + his movement speed = much greater impact speed at the charge(locked shields together would also help i guess).  but of course, some spears would not even survive such impact, which is again, something quite commonly mentioned  (shattered spears upon impact) by Ancient historians btw..

It doesn't matter how many men you think you can harness to a spear thrust, if the angle of it goes nowhere but into the face of a shield front it can't penetrate, that thrust doesn't do anything. The angles are wrong for the usefulness of any underhanded grip in a phalanx, their only target is the enemy's face of the front ranker and that target is already protected by Corinthian helmet and the aspis. Besides, if the face was the literal only target, the pilos helmet would never have become popular. 

now, back to overarm - main issue i see immediately, is the fact that spear point of balance is in the back, not in the middle or front, which is what you would want to have if you want to use a spear that way. Archeological findings of sautoters and spearheads which are in museum in Olympia, give us average weight for sauroter around 300-350g, and spearhead of 100-150g... so trying to hold it at 45 degree, you would constantly fight the much heavier rear half of your spear.

In previous posts you've complained that people are holding the dory at the mid point instead further back, they lose range, now you're saying that if they hold it mid point they also lose balance. Well I guess they can always hold it overhand a bit further back, thereby not only having a more effective manner to thrust into the existing unarmored flesh of their enemy, but also having nearly as much range as the underhanded grip, thus negating a large reason you say they have for using it in the first place. 

Thrand in his videos always uses spear/heavy javelin with large spearhead, but very small butspike (if any) point of balance for that weapon is in the front.  I'm not saying his use is completely bad or something, on contrary, its very interesting and quite effective due to speed he can generate like this. but i would more imagine this use for those who used shorter throwing spears, and fought in a bit more open formation - really would not be surprised to see Roman Legionarii using their heavy pilum like this...

Because he's using a Scandinavian style spear. The only difference in using a Greek spear with a heavier buttspike, maybe a tapered shaft (maybe not), which simply means a change of balance that allows Thrand more range, also with the ability to short spear it and simply work through the strain of a heavier butt end while attacking closer targets. It doesn't change the angles of attack, that's the important part. If you want to use a spear as a weapon against an enemy protected by a helmet and large shield, then you need to have a weapon capable of hitting something exposed on that person, which means going either over, around, or under the shield. Diagonal against opponents to the left or right of those in front would have been useful. But going under the shield with an underhanded thrust is nearly impossible in a phalanx. One, if they have greaves then there is nothing to hit. Two, as you state they aren't closing the distance anyway, so they wont gain any distance needed to pass the shield. Three, the angle is all wrong for the men behind them, because then they wont be in the "Matthew's Ready Position" but having to attack in a completely different manner that seriously risks injuring the second ranker with the sauroter.   

But, all things aside. I'm not interested in a blame game, or some flame wars whats better (had my share of such nonsense in the past).  I want to discuss facts, and theories and look from a practical point of view what would be possible and what would not.

I used facts, in the form of practical illustrations that discuss the angles. You can't debate angles. If the only thrust possible with Matthew's Ready Guard is a direct frontal thrust, that means it can easily be blocked. An overhead grip in the high guard allows for a straight thrust, or a downward thrust, meaning a larger target area.