08-18-2016, 07:02 PM
Lift spear up over head, twist in hands or whatever.
Not possible with men behind.. his aspis would prevent you doing it.. and its not just you, but entire formation would have to do it too.
So you don't think hoplites every actually closed with one another? Are you discounting all the accounts of Othismos?
Mind you that if the hoplite of the army of JaM (finding underhanded) ended up fighting the hoplite army of Bryan (fighting overhanded), my orders would absolutely 100% rely on my force closing the distance as quickly as possible with your army so nullifying your tactics and use of weapons.
not at all - fixing the spears, putting the mass of the formation into spear points... thats actually an ultimate othismos, why would it only mean pushing with shields? besides, whole idea of two masses pushing against each other is quite nonsense.. such thing would end up with front ranks crashed by the pressure.. just look any mentions of human crowd panics.. pressure is insane, yet, there are no archeological findings of armors damaged by such pressure, and i dont recall a single mention from ancient historian of such thing.. mind you, people would die suffocated and crashed by the push.. no way you could survive it. no armor would protect you (remember reading such a crowd push generates enough of energy to bend a railroad...)
It doesn't matter how many men you think you can harness to a spear thrust, if the angle of it goes nowhere but into the face of a shield front it can't penetrate, that thrust doesn't do anything. The angles are wrong for the usefulness of any underhanded grip in a phalanx, their only target is the enemy's face of the front ranker and that target is already protected by Corinthian helmet and the aspis. Besides, if the face was the literal only target, the pilos helmet would never have become popular.
yet Matthew quotes findings of damaged armors which were pierced from shallow upward path. Besides, Aspis would not be immune either. Trand managed to penetrate the shield with his throws, Aspis was not that thick as Scutum, If i recall correctly, it was 0.5mm bronze over 10mm wooden core? or was it less?
In previous posts you've complained that people are holding the dory at the mid point instead further back, they lose range, now you're saying that if they hold it mid point they also lose balance. Well I guess they can always hold it overhand a bit further back, thereby not only having a more effective manner to thrust into the existing unarmored flesh of their enemy, but also having nearly as much range as the underhanded grip, thus negating a large reason you say they have for using it in the first place. [b]
It doesnt matter. Physics still works the same way... rear part is heavier, front part is lighter. Unless you hold it in point of balance, your rear part would push down, making your front part be pushed up.. you would have to use some strength to revert it, which would be quite contraproductive (why not balance the spear towards front..). Even holding it at the point of balance, you would only achieve horizontal position. For 45 degree overarm, point of balance must be in the front. The point about reach is true as well, it doesnt contradict the grip position..
[/b]Because he's using a Scandinavian style spear. The only difference in using a Greek spear with a heavier buttspike, maybe a tapered shaft (maybe not), which simply means a change of balance that allows Thrand more range, also with the ability to short spear it and simply work through the strain of a heavier butt end while attacking closer targets. It doesn't change the angles of attack, that's the important part. If you want to use a spear as a weapon against an enemy protected by a helmet and large shield, then you need to have a weapon capable of hitting something exposed on that person, which means going either over, around, or under the shield. Diagonal against opponents to the left or right of those in front would have been useful. But going under the shield with an underhanded thrust is nearly impossible in a phalanx. One, if they have greaves then there is nothing to hit. Two, as you state they aren't closing the distance anyway, so they wont gain any distance needed to pass the shield. Three, the angle is all wrong for the men behind them, because then they wont be in the "Matthew's Ready Position" but having to attack in a completely different manner that seriously risks injuring the second ranker with the sauroter.
Yet that difference is quite distinctive thing. If Thrand had Dory and held it at the point of balance (at the back) he would not generate same amount of speed with it, as he uses the spear shaft going forward, sliding in his arm. If he held it at the back, distance spear can slide is short, not enough to generate speed for penetration.. And regarding the thrusts - with underarm high grip as on Matthews pictures, second rank still has his aspis in front of him, so sauroter from the men in front of him is not going to hurt him. Only thing wrong with that picture is the fact they stand straight.. i would assume they would be bended in the knees for more stability.
I used facts, in the form of practical illustrations that discuss the angles. You can't debate angles. If the only thrust possible with Matthew's Ready Guard is a direct frontal thrust, that means it can easily be blocked. An overhead grip in the high guard allows for a straight thrust, or a downward thrust, meaning a larger target area.
you can have actually quite good control over your spear with that grip, no need to attack directly, you can easily hit diagonally. I would assume direct clash would be for initial contact with the push of spears, then both formations would be away from each other at the distance of spear, trying to "poke" each other.. then, when one side lost enough of men in front rank (usually nobles, king/ commanders, or most brave and best equipped were in there) rest of them would just rout... yet with theory of pushing shields, if front rank got routed, they would have no space to rout because those behind would push them against enemy... such thing would end up with lots of men crashed by the momentum of the mass...
Not possible with men behind.. his aspis would prevent you doing it.. and its not just you, but entire formation would have to do it too.
So you don't think hoplites every actually closed with one another? Are you discounting all the accounts of Othismos?
Mind you that if the hoplite of the army of JaM (finding underhanded) ended up fighting the hoplite army of Bryan (fighting overhanded), my orders would absolutely 100% rely on my force closing the distance as quickly as possible with your army so nullifying your tactics and use of weapons.
not at all - fixing the spears, putting the mass of the formation into spear points... thats actually an ultimate othismos, why would it only mean pushing with shields? besides, whole idea of two masses pushing against each other is quite nonsense.. such thing would end up with front ranks crashed by the pressure.. just look any mentions of human crowd panics.. pressure is insane, yet, there are no archeological findings of armors damaged by such pressure, and i dont recall a single mention from ancient historian of such thing.. mind you, people would die suffocated and crashed by the push.. no way you could survive it. no armor would protect you (remember reading such a crowd push generates enough of energy to bend a railroad...)
It doesn't matter how many men you think you can harness to a spear thrust, if the angle of it goes nowhere but into the face of a shield front it can't penetrate, that thrust doesn't do anything. The angles are wrong for the usefulness of any underhanded grip in a phalanx, their only target is the enemy's face of the front ranker and that target is already protected by Corinthian helmet and the aspis. Besides, if the face was the literal only target, the pilos helmet would never have become popular.
yet Matthew quotes findings of damaged armors which were pierced from shallow upward path. Besides, Aspis would not be immune either. Trand managed to penetrate the shield with his throws, Aspis was not that thick as Scutum, If i recall correctly, it was 0.5mm bronze over 10mm wooden core? or was it less?
In previous posts you've complained that people are holding the dory at the mid point instead further back, they lose range, now you're saying that if they hold it mid point they also lose balance. Well I guess they can always hold it overhand a bit further back, thereby not only having a more effective manner to thrust into the existing unarmored flesh of their enemy, but also having nearly as much range as the underhanded grip, thus negating a large reason you say they have for using it in the first place. [b]
It doesnt matter. Physics still works the same way... rear part is heavier, front part is lighter. Unless you hold it in point of balance, your rear part would push down, making your front part be pushed up.. you would have to use some strength to revert it, which would be quite contraproductive (why not balance the spear towards front..). Even holding it at the point of balance, you would only achieve horizontal position. For 45 degree overarm, point of balance must be in the front. The point about reach is true as well, it doesnt contradict the grip position..
[/b]Because he's using a Scandinavian style spear. The only difference in using a Greek spear with a heavier buttspike, maybe a tapered shaft (maybe not), which simply means a change of balance that allows Thrand more range, also with the ability to short spear it and simply work through the strain of a heavier butt end while attacking closer targets. It doesn't change the angles of attack, that's the important part. If you want to use a spear as a weapon against an enemy protected by a helmet and large shield, then you need to have a weapon capable of hitting something exposed on that person, which means going either over, around, or under the shield. Diagonal against opponents to the left or right of those in front would have been useful. But going under the shield with an underhanded thrust is nearly impossible in a phalanx. One, if they have greaves then there is nothing to hit. Two, as you state they aren't closing the distance anyway, so they wont gain any distance needed to pass the shield. Three, the angle is all wrong for the men behind them, because then they wont be in the "Matthew's Ready Position" but having to attack in a completely different manner that seriously risks injuring the second ranker with the sauroter.
Yet that difference is quite distinctive thing. If Thrand had Dory and held it at the point of balance (at the back) he would not generate same amount of speed with it, as he uses the spear shaft going forward, sliding in his arm. If he held it at the back, distance spear can slide is short, not enough to generate speed for penetration.. And regarding the thrusts - with underarm high grip as on Matthews pictures, second rank still has his aspis in front of him, so sauroter from the men in front of him is not going to hurt him. Only thing wrong with that picture is the fact they stand straight.. i would assume they would be bended in the knees for more stability.
I used facts, in the form of practical illustrations that discuss the angles. You can't debate angles. If the only thrust possible with Matthew's Ready Guard is a direct frontal thrust, that means it can easily be blocked. An overhead grip in the high guard allows for a straight thrust, or a downward thrust, meaning a larger target area.
you can have actually quite good control over your spear with that grip, no need to attack directly, you can easily hit diagonally. I would assume direct clash would be for initial contact with the push of spears, then both formations would be away from each other at the distance of spear, trying to "poke" each other.. then, when one side lost enough of men in front rank (usually nobles, king/ commanders, or most brave and best equipped were in there) rest of them would just rout... yet with theory of pushing shields, if front rank got routed, they would have no space to rout because those behind would push them against enemy... such thing would end up with lots of men crashed by the momentum of the mass...
Jaroslav Jakubov
