08-22-2016, 03:33 PM
(08-22-2016, 03:12 PM)JaM Wrote: you misunderstood.. im taking about being pushed into back... and as Lindybeige said in his video.. whole idea is ridiculous, because all you need is a knife to slice a throat of a man behind the shield opposite of you... you are way to close to avoid such thing...
and regarding the reach, so why do you think Macedonian came with the idea extending the Dory? Why Iphicrates came with the idea giving his "peltats" longer spears? To me, Matthew's idea show clear military progression in tactics - extend the reach so you gain advantage over your enemy using same tactics.. so eventually, you dropped the Aspis and used the "spear" in both arms, and instead you went for Pelta shield... but with hoplite phalanx not even care for reach of their spears, then what would be the reason for extending the spear? if anything, they would try to make spear shorter and more serviceable in tight formation, not the opposite...
Yes, exactly as I wrote, the appearance of the small sword in the 4thc on Theban Steleai, that famous Athenian vase with a fallen "Spartan" who may well be a theban, and the attribution of the enchiridion or dagger to Spartan hoplites, all speak to me of an increase in the occurance of othismos in battle. This may have been driven by the Thebans and their big farm boys in order to counter the greater spear skill of Spartans and Athenians and track the increasing depth of phalanxes after Pagondas.
I think that the appearance of the sarissa comes on the heels of the Iphicratids. I beleive these to have been "cheap" hoplites who could threaten true hoplites with spear fencing and pin them to a linear front to meet such a challenge while peltasts flanked them. It was clear that if you are not on an island, peltasts along cannot reliably break hoplites. They still need at least the threat of shock combat. Iphicratids could do this, though you will note that they no longer carry the aspis and may have used two hands. I think it more likely that the 12' spear they carry was used in one hand, underhand much like Mathew wishes hoplites to do. A 12' untapered, unweighted spear has a reach of about 6' past the grip, while a dory that is properly balanced has almost the same reach and actually weighs a bit more. The 12' spears were just cheap dorys.
This is why you don't get sarissa before iphicratids. You have to move away from an expectation of fighting shield on shield before you can move to sarissa. Even then it is only the high density produced by allowed by the great length of pikes and men being able to stand sideways with the little pelta that made this a viable anti-hoplite tactic. Mathew's 45cm frontage and notion of a 2-1 advantage in close order is crap, hoplites can't form at 45cm and his figures are all fudged. Measure them and you will see. No hoplite is ever shown in his book at 45cm.
