08-22-2016, 06:43 PM
(08-22-2016, 06:28 PM)JaM Wrote: no, i said you can keep enemy at bay by pressing the spear agaisnt his shield and block him.. same way as phalangites did this to Romans - by fixing sarrissa against Scutum so he couldn't get to them... its even mentioned by Ancient historians that they did that, and Romans tried to chop off the pike head with their swords, but for no avail, because they could still push the shield with the remaining of the pike even after head was chopped off (whch would be quite problematic in the first place)
All im telling from day 1 was that it sounds stupid to me using 2.5m long spear and holding it in the middle, and sounds very suicidal getting into pushing match against second group of men doing the same... especially when we know that actual casualties in ancient battles were relatively small, not over 5% of initial force, and large majority of losses happened AFTER one side routed and ran away... with pushing against each other, those who would panic first - men in front rank - had nowhere to run, but would be crushed or would suffocate or even if they managed to survive, they would have no means to get away from that place...
If you put the tip of a spear point, whether it be a one handed dory or a two handed sarissa, and place it firmly against an adversary's shield, and take one step forward, you will have to push them. So unless both sides go completely immobile and stand still in your battle description (which they never did, according to sources), there will be spears pushing against shields, and shields are pushing against spears. That means your version of othismos isn't a hoplite using the curve of his aspis to press his opponent's shield back back, its men using a one handed spear to push their opponent's back.
The reason this technique works with sarissa is that opposing every single Roman has to fight his way past 5-10 sarissa tips to make it to sword distance of the Macedonian phalanx. Should the Roman charge, or not retreat against the Macedonian style phalanx advance, then they will get stuck against spear points (which might penetrate the thinner scutum), or at the very least prevent them from getting close enough to the enemy to thrust/cut them with a gladius.
With a hoplite line, it doesn't work that way, at best there were two rows of spears held to the front, and held much higher (even with Matt Christopher's theory they are held at shoulder height), so they will be relatively simple for anyone with an aspis or thureos to pass the points and close with their enemy.
Let's talk casualties a moment. Say there are 300 hoplites in a battleline, fighting four ranks deep, in 75 files. Let's say 1/4 of the front rankers are killed or wounded in battle (that's 25% of all promachoi, which is pretty significant), that comes out to 18.75 casualties out of 75 hoplites. 5% casualties out of 300 is 15, which is very close to 18. Double the casualties, say its a very horrific fight and 30 out of 75 promachoi are killed or wounded, that's 46% of the promachoi being casualties, with only 10% casualties of the overall force of 300, which is in keeping with From Sumer to Rome casualty estimates for ancient battle winners. And is in keeping with the horrific nature of hoplite close combat.
