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Files
#1
What is the first specific reference of hoplites forming in files for battle?
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#2
(08-27-2016, 01:13 AM)heBryan Wrote: What is the first specific reference of hoplites forming in files for battle?

There are quite a few.    Basic hoplite drill- as practiced at least by Spartans and seemingly mercenaries- was follow the leader: Xenophon Constitution of the  Lacedaemonians 11.6 “The formation is so easy to understand that no one who knows man from man can possibly go wrong. For some have the privilege of leading; and the rest are under orders to follow.” 

The drill itself is done by doubling, ie. cutting the line in half and moving the rear half along side the front, on the left hand side: Xenophon Cyropaedia. 2.3.21
And once he saw another taxiarch leading his taxis up from the river left about in single file and ordering when he thought it was proper, the second lochos and then the third and the fourth to advance to the front; and when the lochagoi were in a row in front, he ordered each lochos to march up in double file. Thus the dekadarchs came to stand on the front line. Again, when he thought proper, he ordered the pempadarchs to line up four abreast”

As for early hoplites, we don't know for sure.  I think it most likely that the file was the basic unit and a ranking of prowess, prestige and equipment level from front to rear for each.  Even if there were little organization at this date, a man would know who he preferred to stand behind and in front of.  they may have grouped along ranks by kinship ties too, but you would not want different grades of men, again by prowess , age or equipment, in the same rank.
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#3
Do you think the formalizing of files in the phalanx was the result of othismos? That when the hoplites created the aspis to survive crowd pressure it meant needing files?

Also, chicken and the egg question Did the hoplites created the aspis to push? Or did they push because the aspis allowed for it?
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#4
(08-27-2016, 02:56 AM)Bryan Wrote: Do you think the formalizing of files in the phalanx was the result of othismos? That when the hoplites created the aspis to survive crowd pressure it meant needing files?

Also, chicken and the egg question Did the hoplites created the aspis to push? Or did they push because the aspis allowed for it?

You don't need formal files to push.  What happens in othismos happens all the time in crowds of people with no such organization.  Files do ensure an even distribution of men along the front of the taxis.

The round aspis had to predate pushing.  The early shield was probably a whicker or wood and whicker shield covered with hide of the type we see from thrace to Assyria. The depth of the shield was originally to make the shield stiffer- like lenticular shields.  Crowding in close combat is common, at Zama for example, butit is limited by the fact that your own men do not want to crush you.  Somewhere in the greek world it became clear that a domed wooden shield allowed you to pushmore without suffocating. From there it was a simple evolution to what must have been the optimal shape because it barely changes for centuries.
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#5
How can pushing with an aspis be done if the hoplites behind don't have their shields properly lined up and pushing on your back?

Imagine a wedge formation of aspis armed hoplites, like racked billiard balls. The pressure from behind wouldnt push them straight forward, which is the direction the lead hoplite and everyone else are facing. Instead it would be diagonal force from the sides and rear. Easily fixed by putting everyone in files.
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#6
(08-27-2016, 04:08 AM)Bryan Wrote: How can pushing with an aspis be done if the hoplites behind don't have their shields properly lined up and pushing on your back?

Imagine a wedge formation of aspis armed hoplites, like racked billiard balls. The pressure from behind wouldnt push them straight forward, which is the direction the lead hoplite and everyone else are facing. Instead it would be diagonal force from the sides and rear. Easily fixed by putting everyone in files.

The aspis is a very big sheild.  Othismos works best if men are in files, they can easily transmit shock waves forward for example in the manner of falling dominoes , but you could do it with men staggered. Each rank is locked together, so even off line they transfer force.  I should note that you can do othismos at a 90cm frontage, we did it with a single file, and in this case being directly behind is more important in order to keep your push vector straight through the man in front and not slip off the side.

The billiards rach situation you describe does not happen, but I have a feeling that the pushing force was biased to the right, like half your wedge, from some tests I have done. This would give the files on each taxis's right a slight advantage.
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#7
sorry guys, but i still thing the whole idea of pushing is going against the base principle of human psychology. As i wrote in a different thread, not everybody is willing to get hurt, only really small percentage of population would be actually trying to kill somebody while not looking at his own survivability. And usually majority of men in a formation would be not wanting to get anywhere near the danger at all. So idea of rear ranks pushing those in front of them into enemy sounds very strange to me.

Combat is not a sport match. Its not about pushing enemy for few metres to win a battle.. Its was about morale, keeping morale and cohesion of own force longer than enemy would.. but pushing own men into danger, into confined space that they cant even use own weapons (dory is not really a weapon suitable for confined space anyway) is not something that would raise the morale of those in contact with enemy.. if anything, it would have exactly the opposite effect...
People are forgetting real combat was not a game, it was not a sport, those men were not terminators that were not looking on any danger and were just going for the kill...

Instead, i believe this combat was a series of clashes, where both sides would meet, exchange hits, but then one side(which got worst of it) would step back from danger in organized manner, to reform, and prepare for another clash in a minute or two. During that lul, both sides could even have javelins thrown at each other (own, or those carried by Psyloi behind the main line),then when ready again, they would clash with enemy again.


edit:

But of course, i'm not saying that pushing shields is something that never actually happened.. no, i'm just saying it was not a suitable battle tactics, and would most likely happen just as some futile attempt to stop enemy while others men are already wavering and about to rout.

So personally, i think Othismos was not a rugby mill of ancient greeks, but the way how to force enemy to give away.. but not with the actual physical push of men against each other, but with the psychological support to each other, keeping the formation, and forcing enemy to practically withdraw from the clashes first.
Jaroslav Jakubov
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#8
Obviously you are not reading carefully what has been said so far on this thread and the other re want one about othismos. If you believe that anyone on this thread has lately suggested that hoplites went in battle with the intention of fighting a rugby match, then probably you are coming to debunk your own mislead idea about how othismos worked.

SOME times in battle, in any hand to hand battle by deployed heavily armed soldiers, it was possible and even probable that at parts of the front, and for limited (or not) periods, there was density of men. If you feel any backward push from the men in front of you, and if your morale is still strong, you are going to react by pushing the man in front. Similarly, if you are in the front line and you feel your enemy losing morale and stepping backwards, one of the possibilities is that you are going to make a step forward. This may result in your shield bashing against his. It is also probable that if you take a step forward, the men behind you are going to follow. This mechanism may result in high density of men, that can find themselves pushing, or better, leaning forward.

It has been tested at Marathon that by simply leaning against the man in front of you, not pushing like in rugby, and if the whole file does this, immense force is delivered to the front rankers. In most situations this force would cause suffocation and rib fracture to the men involved. Not to hoplites, thanks to the basic part of their equipment, a marvel of ancient engineering, the aspis!

It is a logical derivation, and supported, if not proven, by the sources, that hoplites, unlike other soldiers, could go on fighting even in this unpleasant situation. By the end of the Peloponnesian War enough battles had been fought among the Greeks, that some armies might have even thought of actively using this method of fighting, in other words encouraging or preparing their men to come to close grips with the enemy, so as to stun them by the sheer crowd of their depth of phalanx!

To sum up, there is no doubt that despite the fear and self preservation instinct, ancient battles some times resulted in men pushing, to the point of men staying upright after their death. And their death could be either from the enemy of by the pressure itself. It is in the sources.
There is also no doubt that the Hoplite shield's main advantage compared to other shields was its ability to keep you alive even under these circumstances. The porpax is even shaped to be placed against your ribs comfortably!
Last, it is even described (battle of Koroneia) how the shields were crushed in a fierce battle. Crushed is the word used, not pierced, hacked or any other.

All the above suggest that pushing the men in front of you or getting pushed was something that was expected by the ancient soldier, and the Greeks took extra care to be able to keep on fighting under these circumstances.

We will never know how often this happened, or if it was ever desired by any phalanx, and done deliberately. But that it happened is, I think, undeniable.
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#9
Thing is, there is not a single actual historical mention of what you are describing.Recommend reading what Alexander Zhnodikov wrote about othismos= physical pushing theory:

http://xlegio.ru/ancient-armies/military...t-phalanx/

text is in russian, but can be easily translated by google translator.



and btw, in Peloponesian wars, typical deployment was usually 4 ranks, where for example Spartans preferred to be deployed in thinner lines than everybody else.. some Greek historians even argue of futility putting men in formation deeper than 8 or 12 ranks. (all sources are mentioned in that article)
Jaroslav Jakubov
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#10
I have not read the article yet, I will when I can.

But there is not a description of ANY battle in a detail that would allow us to reconstruct their way of fighting. This is the whole point of the debate.

But as I said, what we have is mentions of men being pushed (eothoundo) and shields laying crushed in the battlefield.
The battle of Koroneia is described as the fiercest of its time by an eye witness and a veteran of war, but this need not be because of the othismos in itself, but of the fact that the whole second phase of the battle was fought in this way, and the stubbornness and determination of both armies to keep on fighting!
Otherwise the word othismos and eothoundo, was not unique to this battle.

As for the depth of formations, nowhere are we told that four deep was normal to fight in, and the most famous (only?) occurance of this depth was for a parade-inspection, where the biggest number of soldiers should be visible while retaining a sane length of front.

In fact the late armies were prepared to form in any depth according to the situation, and on the fourth century the high depths are more and more frequent.

The futility of the tactic is irrelevant, because we know for a fact that they were deploying that deep or deeper.
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#11
(09-05-2016, 09:32 PM)JaM Wrote: Thing is, there is not a single actual historical mention of what you are describing.Recommend reading what Alexander Zhnodikov wrote about othismos= physical pushing theory:

http://xlegio.ru/ancient-armies/military...t-phalanx/

text is in russian, but can be easily translated by google translator.



and btw, in Peloponesian wars, typical deployment was usually 4 ranks, where for example Spartans preferred to be deployed in thinner lines than everybody else.. some Greek historians even argue of futility putting men in formation deeper than 8 or 12 ranks. (all sources are mentioned in that article)

Zhnodikov's paper is not all that impressive.  It is mostly a rehash of the works of Goldsworthy, Krentz, etc. with an ample helping of selective reading of passages like Xenophon's Thymbarra thrown in.  Here is my take on Thymbarra:

http://hollow-lakedaimon.blogspot.com/20...phons.html

From his article:
"Furthermore, we know that before the Battle of Levktrah hoplites sometimes built far more than 8 ranks, however, it is not always successful against less deep phalanx, for example, sirakuzyane built in the 16 ranks, were defeated in hard battle the Athenians, built only 8 rows of (Thuc. VI.67-72)."

This is one of the most common misunderstandings of othismos.  See my post on these common myths.  Our recent data showed exactly how this worked because above 8-12 men it becomes harder to efficiently add more men.  Probably after about 16 ranks you are adding very little added force per man:

http://hollow-lakedaimon.blogspot.com/20...ismos.html


As to hoplites fighting in 4 ranks, this comes from an assumption that they formed in 8 ranks, then doubled down to 4 to fight.  I do not believe this, but even if it is true, it just slides the scale a bit.  You still need to explain the 16 doubled to 8 ranks at Nemea, the 25 down to 12/13 at Delium. and 50 to 25 at Leuktra.

We do know that sometimes men did show great eagerness to get into the fray.  The tearless battle for example Hellenika, I, XXVIII - XXXII "As the result of all these things, so deep a strength and courage came into the hearts of his soldiers, as they tell, that the generals had hard work to restrain their men as they pushed forward to the front."
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#12
btw what about AK Goldsworthy and his The Othismos, Myths and Heresies: The Nature of Hoplite Battle, didnt read that book yet (can't find ebook anywhere) whats your take on it?


edit:

was looking through you blog, one thing caught my eyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRRhC-h4ON8#t=16

from combat perspective,  amount of stress that guy in the front would face would be insane.. he has no chance to back out, is practically pushed into enemy weapons..  i just cant see how would  you ever  convince somebody to be in the front rank if that was how you wanna break through enemy formation.
Jaroslav Jakubov
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#13
(09-08-2016, 01:05 PM)JaM Wrote: btw what about AK Goldsworthy and his The Othismos, Myths and Heresies: The Nature of Hoplite Battle, didnt read that book yet (can't find ebook anywhere) whats your take on it?


edit:

was looking through you blog, one thing caught my eyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRRhC-h4ON8#t=16

from combat perspective,  amount of stress that guy in the front would face would be insane.. he has no chance to back out, is practically pushed into enemy weapons..  i just cant see how would  you ever  convince somebody to be in the front rank if that was how you wanna break through enemy formation.

Ha, no, hoplites did not do the human battering ram thing.  One thing that confuses people is that when I started writing about this I was writing specifically against the charge-to-othismos notions of Hanson et al.  Because of this much of what I showed was how their style of pushing does not generate the most force.  That video is on my blog to show how you would charge if you wanted to charge and break a line of men- you have to be a compact mass.   But the fact is that you don't gain very much by charging at all.  This fact is what allowed me to show that othismos can happen after a period of spear fencing and does not have to happen in every battle.

As to Goldsworthy: http://hollow-lakedaimon.blogspot.com/20...eresy.html
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#14
ok, that explains a lot then.. i was afraid you wanna suggest exactly that, because i think doing such thing in this order would be actually lethal to the front rank.. amount of speed combined with the push of the formation, then hitting the solid obstacle (braced enemy shield wall)... that could be quite dangerous..

Anyway i can see a tightly packed group of men being capable stopping any attempts on breaking the line.. seen some nice videos about Korean Police training just that, where they doubled the formation in the area where enemy was expected.. let me see if I can find it quickly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbFSVh1mmiw


btw, unrelated but at 1:00 in that video, the loose order, i would imagine that could be how Romans could fight.. they were mentioned to use double the spacing of Hellenic phalanx.. and such open formation would easily allow any rank replacements...
Jaroslav Jakubov
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#15
(09-08-2016, 07:12 PM)JaM Wrote: Anyway i can see a tightly packed group of men being capable stopping any attempts on breaking the line.. 

btw, unrelated but at 1:00 in that video, the loose order, i would imagine that could be how Romans could fight.. they were mentioned to use double the spacing of Hellenic phalanx.. and such open formation would easily allow any rank replacements...

I am close to 300lbs and I threw myself into a two deep shield wall and just bounced off.  I believe the 6 foot spacing comes from Polybios, but I have a hard time accepting a shield wall where the shields are not close together.
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