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Daniel S Peterson · 06-03-2002, 04:58 PM

Does anybody have access to a color representation of the "Battle of Ebenezer" fresco from Dura Europas. Specifically, I want to know the colors of the tunics of the two mounted "champions" who seem to have removed their armor and are about to engage in single combat. It is very apparent in B&W photographs that these are not white tunics, nor do they have decoration common to the civilian or military "dress" tunics of the 3d century. They are probably a good example of the "colored" military tunics worn in combat due to the impracticality of white tunics on campaign. Interesting that Fuentes completely ignored these in the infamous "white tunics only" article...... but then, that would have contradicted the whole point of his article. 
 
Dan

06-03-2002, 05:17 PM

Dan, if you manage to get some information on those tunics, could you perhaps post it on RAT? Or, if you get some pics, that would also be nice. 
 
BTW, the hunt continues for your elusive needle felt...so far no luck here in Canada in the Niagara Falls area. A couple people from RAT in the US are also looking, so maybe we'll hit pay dirt. But, if we can't, perhaps we can arrange something, to use you as a supplier? 
 
Thanks. 
 
"Remember.....pillage first, then burn." 
- First guy over the wall

Richomeres · 06-03-2002, 06:13 PM

Dan, 
 
I have come across color pics from the Dura frescoes some where, however I cannot lay my hands on it. I will let you know when I have found them. 
 
Helge

Gashford · 06-03-2002, 08:45 PM

Dan 
 
While I shudder to open this whole bag of worms again can I ask question about your research in this field? Before I do though please let me state that no insult is intended, no nitpicking is meant and so forth and to prove it, if we ever meet again I will introduce myself and buy you a drink of whatever takes your fancy. 
 
Is your research based upon an imperical study or upon something else, a point to prove. I am asking because obviously, like most everyone else, I depend heavily upon the time and patience that people like yourself have been able to dedicate to examination of an enjoyable study. However, it is always vital whenever relying upon the studies of others that you understand something of thier reason for study and the study methods they have employed, I am sure you understand that. Forums like this are an invaluable resource to people like myself because they allow us to directly query peoples queries and theories. 
 
In your note below you have stated, "They are probably a good example of the "colored" military tunics worn in combat due to the impracticality of white tunics on campaign." This would imply that you have already decided/found out that white tunics where impractical on campaign and therefore they must have worn coloured tunics. It would possibly show that your research is based upon speculation that white is impractical because of all the reasons mentioned before so therefore they wore coloured tunics. Which is not worong in itself, obviously theory/speculation has a place in historical study as much as imperical study. Have you come to the impractical colouring through imperical research or theoretical? 
 
Finally you have written that the Fuentes work, I have not read it, is 'infamous'. Is this infamous because of poor study notation, writing and/or sources or because it does not agree with proponents of coloured tunics over white or mixed tunics etc ...? 
 
Thanks for humouring me, and seriously, please keep up the good work and please, please, don't right off my query as a troublemaker, I am truly interested in this whole area of study. 
 
Thanks Dan and I will remember to buy you a drink if I ever see you again. 
 
Graham

Goffredo · 06-04-2002, 09:59 AM

Hi guys, 
I am very interested in the Dura Europos finds. 
I read that the wall tower that collapsed from Sassanid mining contained many dead roman soldiers (in the mine itself) and equipment (one of the rooms of the tower was a store room) and YET I have never found any photos or drawings on the WEB which makes me think that all studies are old and nothing new has been made of them. Does anyone know of a uptodate study on the roman military finds?

**richsc** · 06-04-2002, 10:34 AM

It seems that Dura Europos was excavated and written up season by season from the 1920's through 1950's. One could probably do a study just on their excavation techniques and methodology! I do have one book on the excavations (at home) and I know Dr. Simon James has a website on his digs there, but all the books from those digs are out of print and hard to find on the search engines. Richard Campbell, Legio XX.
http://www.geocities.com/richsc53/studies/
ICQ 940236

06-04-2002, 11:00 AM

Salve, 
 
Yale has an online collection of colour pictures of the Dura-Europos paintings. The battle scene can be found on this page while the soldiers at the Red Sea crossing are to be found here, interestingly showing a variety of colours for the clothing worn beneath their armour. 
 
Regards, 
 
Sander van Dorst

06-04-2002, 03:55 PM

Is it just me, or is it really hard to tell what colour clothing they have on, other than the white, which stands out, but i may also be confusing the white with armour. What colours are there in the red sea crossing? Any olive green? "Remember, pillage first....then burn." 
- First guy over the wall

06-05-2002, 07:53 AM

Salve, 
 
No olive green, just DPM. 
 
Apart from the white seen under some of the armoured (the grey is patterned, which suggests that the mail/scale effect more clearly indiated on the other painting is intended) figures on the left side of the picture, others show white with a pinkish edge. One tunic looks greyish, though I can't discern whether this might be intended to represent the armour or the tunic, or possibly the tunic border. The colours of the trousers or gaiters is alternating red and white matching the alternating shield colours, though the third figure from the right has a greyish shield. Those on the right side of the picture have their tunics and legs obscured by the group standing in front and show a more varied pattern of shield colours compared to the more rigid composition of the left side of the painting. 
 
Regards, 
 
Sander van Dorst

Daniel S Peterson · 06-05-2002, 06:39 PM

Sander, thanks for the Dura link. These look dark gray and I suspect what they are wearing may not be tunics at all, but natural gray felt subarmalis. This compliments the illustration and description in De Rebus Bellicus. 
 
Graham, 
My tunic color "crusade" began because reenactors generally want to "do it right", that is, to recreate their "alter ego" as accurately as possible. For some, it is enough that they "read it in an Osprey book" (or off a slick website). For others, it is an examiniation of ALL the contemporary evidence. I term the Fuentes study "infamous" because it purports to be an "exhaustive study of all the known evidence", yet in fact, leaves out any evidence that contradicts his objective of proving that Roman soldiers only wore white tunics. In fact, there are far more examples of red tunics being worn by regular Roman soldiers throughout the Roman era and each instance will be cited in my next book. 
 
Unfortunately, the publicaton of the Fuentes study in a professional journal has given it a degree of credibility it never deserved, and other writers, even lettered archaelogist like Boris Rankov, have taken it at face value, have pertpetuated its myths. It is laughable when one considers that what at first glance seems to be the most convincing and compelling evidence for the ever-popular early Imperial period is not even Roman, but Ptolemaic! 
 
I cannot believe anyone could have studied this subject to the degree Nick had, and not come to realize how much real evidence exists to contradict his "white only theory". I have already stated on a previous thread what I believe were the true motives of this "study" were. 
 
There is plenty of evidence for red, white, and other colored tunics. Most of it suggests (as confirmed by experimental achaeology), that white tunics were worn largely on dress occassions (reflecting civilian custom), and colored tunics (predominately red), were worn while on campaign/under arms. 
 
Dan. P.S. I even bet we are the only Roman group that has/wears red tunics under arms and white (with red clavi) for "dress" ocassions. It was never a matter of red OR white to me, but red AND white.

06-05-2002, 07:28 PM

Salve, 
 
Yet there still remain lots of questions unanswered. First of all, there is no clearcut division between shades worn under armour and without it. Extant source material does not provide clear indications for uniformity of clothing. Should you have references that state otherwise, you should, as repeatedly requested before, by all means share them. There still remain depictions of Roman troops wearing white clothing under armour and condemnation of reenactors choosing to portray whiteclad troops is thus not in order. Pompeii and Dura provide clear examples. 
 
Identification of the Palestrina soldiers as belonging to a subject set in Ptolemaic times is one thing, quite another matter remains assessing the artist's examples used for his troops. It is highly questionable to suppose that a subject set in the past was portrayed in accurate equipment rather than with attire current at the moment the work was created. Sense of history was in general not well developed and artist choose to use contemporary examples in their vision of the past (cf the troops on the synagogue paintings, which are more closely representative of Roman era troops than of Egyptian forces of the New Kingdom). In addition Hellenistic armies were influenced by Roman military practices when these emerged as a military power of significance. Ptolemaic troops can still be argued to reflect Roman styles of dress and equipment. These considerations must be taken into account when examining the evidence. Even though an Egyptian subject might be intended, this does not preclude that Roman soldiers, either directly or indirectly, in fact provided a model for the artist. 
 
Regarding allegations about a white only theory, Fuentes never claimed that white was the sole colour worn. He noted the use of other colours and integrated those into his proposed model. It is a misrepresentation of his views to make such claims. 
 
Regards, 
 
Sander van Dorst

Gashford · 06-05-2002, 10:03 PM

Dan, 
 
Thanks for answering my questions, without taking offence. 
 
It would seem that this Dura depiction of the ancient biblical events creates more questions than it might even allude to give answers for. 
 
The tunic colours of the men in one of the scenes, the site seems to be down at the moment, alternates perhaps giving us more of a direct indication of the artists aesthetic sensibilities rather than a historic depiction .. unless we need to have the soldiers stand in alternating colours in the ranks The aesthetic consideration also gains a little credibility as the soldiers shown also alternate skin colour in one of the line ups. 
 
This is a nightmare that I am glad us gladiators need not get involved with. 
 
Thanks again for all your time, incidently is there an online sample of the Fuentes document to read? 
 
Take care all, 
 
Graham

Goffredo · 06-06-2002, 08:23 AM

I agree that an artist in those days, representing a scene even more remote in time, historic or mythological, would not attempt accurate representations. The representation was always conventional according to some fashion. 
 
In a previous thread I actually raised the issue of how accurate roman representations were of military equipment over time (republican art, trajanic period, late empire) and space (art in rome, provincial and regional art). What are your impressions? Can artistic representations be decoded and to what degree? 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/ugoffredo.showPublicProfile?language=EN>goffredo</A> at: 6/6/02 10:24:18 am

06-08-2002, 01:22 PM

Ok a few points: 
 
1. Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" has adopted the Red tunic for battle dress/white for parade dress. Clavii (red) will be worn by centurions on their white tunics, as well as higher ranking officers. So Dan, you are not the only one. However, in Connolly's "Greece and Rome at War", there is a picture of a 2nd century legionary (my time period) in an olive drab tunic. I would have went with one of those, but I chose red instead for a lack of evidence for OD. 
 
2. Has any forensic testing been done on these frescoes and paintings, to see if another colour was applied over top of this white, and has faded or come away over time? Perhaps this white we see all the time is some kind of primer? 
 
3. I think ancient art, of any type has to be open to some interpretation. Look at some of the work modern artists do today...especially abstract art. But I was thinking more on the lines of some of our movie posters, magazines, comics, and that type of thing. Certainly they don't portray humans in realistic dress, or body types for that matter. We know the difference, but would someone 2000 years from now, digging up an old superman comic, think we all dressed in blue spandex? 
 
Interpretation is such a b---h! "Remember, pillage first....then burn." 
- First guy over the wall

**Robert Vermaat** · 06-26-2002, 11:22 AM

It's not out yet, but there's a new publication on the way to enliven this discussion: Roman Military Clothing (1) - 100 BC - AD 200 (www.ospreypublishing.com/...41764876). It's by GRAHAM SUMNER, and deals with subjects such as: 
Tunic designs 
Military cloak designs 
Dyes and dyeing 
Catalogue of evidence for colours of tunics and cloaks, AD 1 - 200 (25 items of literary, sculptural, fresco, encaustic, mosaic, papyrus and surviving textile evidence discussed) 
The scarf 
Trousers (bracae), legwear, leg-bindings, socks, waistband 
Military boots 
Miscellaneous items 
 
Cheers, 
 
Robert Vermaat 
[email protected]

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