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07-22-2002, 06:43 PM

I was wondering, do you guys think that the Roman Empire is somewhat of a ghost that haunts Western Civilization? There have been several times when people have wanted to bring the empire back, justintine and hitler come to mind.

***Praefectusclassis*** · 07-22-2002, 06:53 PM

Is that a ghost of the past or just some creep from the not-so-past looking for an excuse? And for the empire to be a ghost, it would have to be dead and gone, but (apart from Holy Roman Empires ectetera taking up the job) its influence is still noticable every day in our own society. Greets 
 
Jasper

07-22-2002, 09:49 PM

I know that it lives on to this day, its just that many people look back at the heyday of the empire and long for its return. Its almost like a monkey on our backs...an obsession. Do you catch my drift or do i sound like a lunatic.

07-22-2002, 09:54 PM

Speaking of the Roman Empire's influence in the modern age, I came across a book titled 'USA: The American Empire'. Now, the word 'empire' is used frequently nowadays to describe just about any organisation that spans more than one geographical location. While I believe that this cheapens the term 'empire', with regard to the USA I see some validity in referring to it as an empire. 
 
Is the USA a modern Roman Empire? While the details would certainly be different, are the core attributes similar enough between these two powerful civilisations to warrant a comparison? Is the USA the latest successor to the Western Imperial throne that was occupied by its predecessors such as Britain, Spain, France, Byzantium etc.? Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/uauxilia.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Auxilia</A> at: 7/22/02 11:56:29 pm

07-22-2002, 10:31 PM

I can see the books point also..but from a philisophical (spelled wrong i know) or the literal sense i don't know.

07-23-2002, 12:28 AM

Avete! 
 
several weeks ago i was at a party with some co-workers, and one of the other guests started a conversation with me about how the prevalent attitude in the United States was that "like it or not we are the modern Roman Empire..."( ominous background music implied ). I tend to disagree, although I dont think that it would necessarily be a bad thing to be. Also, to a degree I think he had a point. The nato alliance tend to be the enforcers of a new 'pax romana', and sometimes I think that there are people that should be forcibly set on the path to truth and enlightenment, and I know that there are people who sometimes need to be protected. fortunately there aren't many circumstances to warrant this kind of thing, even in today's violent world. 
however, the U.S.A. is generally happy to let other countries mind their own business, so to speak, and we aren't looking to take over the world. 
 
that's my story and I'm sticking to it! 
 
Salvete! 
Gaius Marius Aquilus

07-23-2002, 10:25 AM

Salve 
 
I think you are right, and it isn't necessarily a bad ghost. It is interesting that the growth in awareness of the Roman past sprung up at the same time as European empire building in the C19th. Gibbon wrote his Decline and Fall just as the British Empire really started to swing, and many of the empire builders of the time were classically educated. There are also convergent trends between Roman and C19th empire building: look at the role played by adventurers in prodding on the government to expand (Caesar and the East India Company make a nice comparison). Also look at 'preventative' acquisitions, such as Britain getting involved in India to beat the French, and similarly the Romans getting involved in Judea to block Parthian access to the sea. In a sense some of this 'ghost' could just be an awareness of history repeating itself, but also there is the fact that many future empires did model themselves on Rome, and the concept of Empire was a guiding example for them. Rather ironically, the Japanese modelled many of the aspects of their WWII empire on the European example, and so it could be argued that they themselves were haunted by the same ghost. 
 
Just as a last point, despite the politically correct revisionism going around in history at the moment, the general quality of life almost always increased once a land had been added to an empire. Just look at the building programmes instigated by the Romans in Britain and Germany, and consider that with an entire empire's resources to draw on, famine became a thing of the past for most people. Also law and order, peace, prosperity, justice, opportunity etc ............... is it such a bad thing for people to want to emulate this today? 
 
Vale 
 
Celer.

**richsc** · 07-23-2002, 10:51 AM

I have to point out that Shakespeare, in Henry V, has Capt Flewellen (sp?) talk about the "tittle tattle in Pompey's camp", so that understanding about the art of war included the study to some extent of Rome even in the 16th century. Richard Campbell, Legio XX.
http://www.geocities.com/richsc53/studies/
ICQ 940236

07-23-2002, 11:27 AM

I'm not sure the comparison of the Roman Empire to Hitler's Third Reich is a good one though. Hitler was trying to create a third German Empire (the first being under I believe Fredrick the great during the crusades, the the second being under Either Otto von Bismarck or Chancellor Wagner)...I just don't think It's a good comparison. 
 
My two sesterces... 
 
Marcus Bruttius Romulus 
Optio 
Legio III Augusta

***Praefectusclassis*** · 07-23-2002, 11:55 AM

I'd rather put the 'awareness' of the Roman past a bit more back in time. Even if we disregard the fact that the empires (Charlemagne's and the Holy Roman Empire for instance) considered themselves a continuance of the Roman Empire in the west, the Renaissance movement called Humanism very consciously looked back to the Classical past for inspiration. Latin texts, among them Vegetius' De Rei Militari, were still known and used, but the Fall of Constantinople (1453) brought a huge flow of Greek texts westward, fueling the renewed interest. Greets 
 
Jasper

TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS · 07-23-2002, 02:05 PM

In my opinion, any following emulator is lacking of the deep spirituality (not religion: it's not enough) of the Romans. "Repubblicans" or "imperials", they remained deeply "Romans", through the changes and through the assimilations. Not just a monarchy, or a language, or a nation kept them all "Romans": it was the spirit of Roma, its Myth, its traditions, the "Genius loci" you could find in the whole Empire (yes, that "Genius loci" was "global"). 
 
About U.S.A. empire: maybe, but I don't see the public thermae in any little town yet, I can see just a lot of Mc Donalds. 
 
But above all (none be offended) I don't feel any real imperial atmosphere... 
 
Ualete 
Titus Sabatinus Aquilius

Caius Fabius · 07-23-2002, 04:01 PM

Considering that the public baths were a social place for meeting, greeting, business deals, and a place to relax and eat, maybe the "Golden Arches" are the "public thermae". 
 
An empire who has military forces stationed in more countires than Rome dreamed of..... Did Rome at the peak of it's political power ever meddle in so many countries, cultures, and try and get them to accept the standards of living and politics? 
 
American (USA) materialism and "democracy" are exported to the whole world today as the "standard" whereby countries are considered barbaric or not. If you don't have electricity, television, or democracy, the Empire will try and make you see the error of your ways! If you don't speak English, "we" will force it down your throats, via radio, television, films and the internet and your pilots must speak it as well! 
 
Instead of a strong military on the frontiers of the "empire" now we want to create a "mobile strike force" (comitatenses)that can project our power instantly, all over the world, and nip any enemy in the bud. We are even considering doing away with "posse comitatis acts" and allowing the military to be used as police re-enforcements against citizens and non-citizens inside our country! 
 
Ave Imperium! Salute the Eagles! 
 
(or maybe not) 
 
 
 
"Just before class started, I looked in the big book where all the world's history is written, and it said...." Neil J. Hackett, PhD ancient history, professor OSU, 1987

07-24-2002, 12:02 AM

Marcus Antonius Celer wrote: 
 
"Just as a last point, despite the politically correct revisionism going around in history at the moment, the general quality of life almost always increased once a land had been added to an empire. Just look at the building programmes instigated by the Romans in Britain and Germany, and consider that with an entire empire's resources to draw on, famine became a thing of the past for most people. Also law and order, peace, prosperity, justice, opportunity etc ............... is it such a bad thing for people to want to emulate this today?" 
 
That may have been the case with ancient Rome, but quite the opposite seems to be happening in our modern times. The existence of commercial 'empires' and 'imperial states' like the USA has drawn up a great gap between the rich and the needy, between those who have too much food to eat and those who starve. While the introduction of 'civilisation' by Rome to the conquered/assimilated lands may have benefited the new subject people, the same cannot be said for other expansionist empires in history. The Spanish 'invasion' of the Americas is one notorious example. No benefits there for the natives, simply the systematic extermination of their culture and people. 
 
Furthermore I think it would be rather naive to assume that all the subject peoples of the Roman Empire were content with their life under the Imperial yoke. Rebellions by the British Celts and the Jews of Judea showed that 'quality of life' did not only consist of physical needs (which may have been adequately met for them), but also the human rights that these people felt they were entitled to i.e. liberty. 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/uauxilia.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Auxilia</A> at: 7/24/02 2:05:44 am

07-28-2002, 07:08 AM

Occassionally over the years I've seen titles to magazines or articles labeling The Unites States as an "Empire" or "Imperialistic". I disagree. However, some of them might not have been so literal, but rather tongue in cheek. It is interesting to note that I've seen this moreso since our war in Afganistan. I don't believe world influence defines imperialism. I'm sure there's some of you here who could put me under the table on this one so please enlighten me if you can. 
 
In comparing America to Ancient Rome...I'm divided. It's not in our moral makeup to conquer territory, annex the land, and create provinces. Nor have we been around for very long. There are similarities in some of our faults, and our pluses. A friend of mine had a college professor who wrote an essay on this topic. It's not an overly common topic where I live, but it's not rare either. Despite all of this to say that America is TRYING to emulate Rome is just completely ridiculous. I've never really seen that brought up, but I just thought to mention it. To end my two cents, I mean denarii, I'd like to state that the one thing Rome and The United States do have in common perhaps of the utmost importance is responsibility. It goes with the territory. We have the means necessary to be responsible. BUT, we're a bunch of morons who only speak one language and know less about our own geography than Europeans do. So don't count on us. EM

07-28-2002, 07:55 PM

Salve! 
I My opinion the similarity between USA and Rome are a bit forced. 
The USA have now the wealth, the political and the military power, but these are all too "young", dating less than a century; but USA are still lacking a "spiritual" premiership ( which is still in the hands of the "Old Europe") ...and there isn't any istitution like an over national citizenship like the Civitas Romana; in my opinion the USA are the younger part of the civilization born with Rome, and like all the youngs naturally the most vigorous. What nowaday we call the Western Civilization is the evolution thruogh the centuries of the one born in the hills of Rome, stopped with the premature fall of the western frontiers (before the Germans tribes awarded a complete civilization [Varus! Varus!....] and payng it with several centuries of barbarization, feudal system...et cetera), and rised again vigorously during the Rinascimento. 
 
Best Regards, 
Lucianus

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