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Number of legions at Zama
#31
I won't enter this debate on specifics, but I have some general comments.

I know that the Alexander historians loose track of tens of thousands of reinforcements and garrison troops- either they don't say where he left them, or they don't bother mentioning they arrived (in this case we know about them because other writers choose different reinforcements to mention). These discrepancies have to be corrected by comparing sources, and even then there are odd gaps, mostly towards not knowing where troops that arrived ended up. Thus I think it is dangerous to assume that our sources tell us of every signigicant detachment from an army. It is my impression that ancient historians just ignored noncombat casualties unless they were unusually numerous or picturesque. As a rule, in wars before WWI for which we have good records combat casualties were much outnumbered by noncombat.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#32
Well done James McKinnon !!

Your analysis is well thought out and incisive. Many years ago, I researched and wrote for a book called "Classical Warfare",(author John Warry; published around 1980, and still in print !!), and among other things researched Zama - reaching conclusions similar to your own.

Later still, as an avid fan of both my namesake Scipio and Hannibal (both of whom rank very highly among History's greatest commanders - indeed Zama may be unique in having such superb commanders on both sides ! )I wrote a detailed analysis of the battle for the 'Society of Ancients' magazine 'Slingshot' called "Generalship at the battle of Zama" (Slingshot no.142 March 1989). Although this was heavily shortened and editorialised in its published version the article does discuss the sources for numbers, ancient and modern in some detail.

One trivia point regarding Carthaginian Infantry. These were NOT pikemen. This misconception stems from the fact that early translators e.g. in the Loeb version, mistranslated the greek word 'longcophoroi' ( literally; longche-carriers) as 'pikemen'. The 'longchai' is in fact a hybrid spear/javelin or light spear which could be thrown and the Latin equivalent is 'lancea' ( which auxilaries often carried.) Connolly( and others) followed this in his Hannibal book, but I did not in 'Classical Warfare' nor did Duncan Head in 'Armies and Enemies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars' -which has a good discussion of this point on p.144.

regards, Paullus Scipio/ Paul McDonnell-Staff[/b]
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#33
Well, we have our views, and I think it's all worth considering, given the exiguous nature of the timeperiod.
Sean Manning:
Quote:...Thus I think it is dangerous to assume that our sources tell us of every signigicant detachment from an army. It is my impression that ancient historians just ignored noncombat casualties unless they were unusually numerous or picturesque...
I agree, Sean, and you put forth an opinion of mine with much more succinctness. Unless it was substantial, with regards to an army being vastly under paper-strength or a virulent disease afflicting it, I feel we can assume the numbers of garrisoned troops and non-combat casualties were minimal in quantity (not necessarily negligible). But the initial proposed figures, well, that's a different argument. I think revisionism has 'caught' the ridiculous exaggerations, whether the Persians and their allies at Gaugamela, Caesar's foes in Gaul, or the numbers killed, from both sides, at Chalons 451 A.D.

Indeed, after Gaugamela, Alexander received some 47,000 men from various points (not just Greece). But there were also many demobilizations.

Thank you Paul. I do know the book - the one with terrific illustrations?

Good trivia with the Carthaginian 'pikemen'. I did indeed state on the other thread, following Connolly and others, that Hannibal ordered his front ranks to level their 'pikes'. I should have stated spears. I presume we think of pikes as a sarissa or something akin to it. Indeed, Libyan infantry could throw their spears, as well as use them to jab etc. I don't know about the misconception you are referring to, but my Loeb Classic of Polybius' work does say, Book 15.14,

"...Hannibal did not allow the survivors in their flight to mix with his own men but, ordering the foremost ranks to level their spears against them, prevented them from being received into his force. They were therefore obliged to retreat towards the wings and the open ground beyond..."

But it looks like this version, originally put together in the 1920s, was indeed revised in the late 1970s.

Thanks, James Smile
"A ship in harbor is safe - but that is not what ships are built for."

James K MacKinnon
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#34
Yes, James - the illustrations, when they appeared, were quite special - they were done by my good friend Jeffrey Burn, and it should be borne in mind that nothing like them, other than Peter Connolly's then existed, and I think Jeff's are much better and more accurate !! But then I am a tad biased, and Connolly was the pioneer in the ancient field, going back to his original illustrations and the marvellous cover for H.Russell Robinson's "Armour of Imperial Rome" in the mid seventies.

Turning to your point about the spears, at the risk of being pedantic, the reference in Polybius is to Hannibal's THIRD line, i.e his mercenaries who returned from Italy with him. After 17 odd years, most of these will have been south Italian mercenaries and greek mercenaries with maybe a few grey-haired and grizzled Gauls and the odd North African survivor from the army that crossed the Alps all those long years before, armed with thusual mercenary spears/longchai.......Elsewhere, the Libyans are frequently called 'longcophoroi'/pikemen. ( Sorry, I don't have my Loeb Polybius to hand and can't pointyou to specific references - but I do recall one instance is where Hannibal tricks the Romans with the torches tied to cattle horns, to mask his real line of retreat)....

regards, Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#35
Regarding Aryaman2/Inaki's point about logistics.

Apart from the fact that Scipio had secure communications to Sicily and Sardinia ( both "bread baskets" in Roman times) thanks to Roman Naval superiority, and the fact that a single ship could transport many,many wagon loads of grain, North Africa then was not like North Africa now -the climate was different for a start ( shades of a modern topic !! ) and it was much more verdant with lush fields and abundant grain. After the Punic wars it supplemented Sicily as Rome's major grain supplier, until superceded in turn by Egypt when it became part of the Empire. Carthage had sophisticated agricultural techniques including advanced irrigation methods ( a fact commented on by Roman writers).There is a vast difference between logistics in N.E. Europe in the sevententh century and Punic North Africa. Even by Byzantine times and the vandal invasions, North Africa had changed significantly. Comparisons cannot therefore be made in any meaningful way......but hey, the study of logistics can give us some insight into the subject of army numbers, just not so in this case.

Paullus Scipio/ Paul McDonnell-Staff
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#36
Quote: I feel we can assume the numbers of garrisoned troops and non-combat casualties were minimal in quantity (not necessarily negligible).
I feel just the opposite, non-combat casualties up to the ACW were by far greater than combat casualties, and they were constant along campaign. G. Parker studied the attrition of units in XVI and XVII centuries through muster calls and pay rolls and they show units losing strength from the start, in fact it was the first 3 monthsafter a unit was recruited that attrition was higher, after that it settled to a lower rate.
Even just the inminence of battle could raise desertion to high levels in just days, for instance beween the muster at Duben and the muster at Breitenfeld, just two days later, no less than 10% of Swedish infantry disappeared. In the campaign of 1300 the English army in Scotland lost in trhee months half its sterngth wothout any single major action fought. Examples are numerous, and we know of them only through documetary evidence, narrative sources usually omit those unglamorous details.
AKA Inaki
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#37
Quote:Regarding Aryaman2/Inaki's point about logistics.

Apart from the fact that Scipio had secure communications to Sicily and Sardinia ( both "bread baskets" in Roman times) thanks to Roman Naval superiority, and the fact that a single ship could transport many,many wagon loads of grain, North Africa then was not like North Africa now -the climate was different for a start ( shades of a modern topic !! ) and it was much more verdant with lush fields and abundant grain. After the Punic wars it supplemented Sicily as Rome's major grain supplier, until superceded in turn by Egypt when it became part of the Empire. Carthage had sophisticated agricultural techniques including advanced irrigation methods ( a fact commented on by Roman writers).There is a vast difference between logistics in N.E. Europe in the sevententh century and Punic North Africa. Even by Byzantine times and the vandal invasions, North Africa had changed significantly. Comparisons cannot therefore be made in any meaningful way......but hey, the study of logistics can give us some insight into the subject of army numbers, just not so in this case.

Paullus Scipio/ Paul McDonnell-Staff
Yes, Africa was relatively rich back then, however I doubt ancient armies could get the ammount of supplies TYW armies could get in central Germany, my points of comparison are
1) Supply systems were similar, as the regular use of supply lines were not still in use.
2) Transport systems were much more developed in the TYW, both land and water. Moving into Zama inland and away from his coastal base, Scipio had to rely basically on land transport for supply, or more probably on gathering supplies on the march.
3) Despite Africa being rich back then , agriculture was considerably more developed in Europe in the XVII century, and central Germany was a rich country with a high population density.
So, despite those comparative advantages, TYW armies struggled to keep forces over 40.000 so as to starve, I frankly doubt very much Ancient could do it so easily.
AKA Inaki
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#38
So..........was that two legions or four, sir? :roll:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#39
Quote:Well, we have our views, and I think it's all worth considering, given the exiguous nature of the timeperiod.
Sean Manning:
Quote:...Thus I think it is dangerous to assume that our sources tell us of every signigicant detachment from an army. It is my impression that ancient historians just ignored noncombat casualties unless they were unusually numerous or picturesque...
I agree, Sean, and you put forth an opinion of mine with much more succinctness. Unless it was substantial, with regards to an army being vastly under paper-strength or a virulent disease afflicting it, I feel we can assume the numbers of garrisoned troops and non-combat casualties were minimal in quantity (not necessarily negligible). But the initial proposed figures, well, that's a different argument. I think revisionism has 'caught' the ridiculous exaggerations, whether the Persians and their allies at Gaugamela, Caesar's foes in Gaul, or the numbers killed, from both sides, at Chalons 451 A.D.

Indeed, after Gaugamela, Alexander received some 47,000 men from various points (not just Greece). But there were also many demobilizations.
I too cannot accept that such losses were typically negligible. Rather, I think that our sources will not tell us about them unless they were considered especially numerous. A Greek hoplite army with good cavalry support, operating in Greece in the summer, would take negligible day-to-day casualties. An army overseas, especially in forests, rough ground, or deserts, would take significant casualties outside of combat. What this means for Zama I will leave for others familiar with the campaign to consider.

Geoffrey Parker has noted that the Spanish Army of Flanders suffered about 2% attrition per month, whether in combat or not. There were more nasty diseases in 16th-17th century Flanders than the Roman world, and support for troops was somewhat more primitive (eg. tents were scarce). On the other hand, this was probably the best army in the world of its day, and it was living in fairly easy terrain (except during sieges) and the richest region in Europe.

On the other hand, early modern armies had logistical problems in part because they exceeded the capacity of their governments to support. Kingdoms with small bureaucracies and incomes took on the responsibility of supporting huge professional or mercenary armies for long periods, and things were very bad for a century or so while they learned how to do this again. Ancient armies underwent no such sudden leaps in size (excluding Philip II's creation of a standing army tens of thousands strong). So the comparison must be used with caution, but I think it can tell us many useful things we would never know from ancient sources alone.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#40
Indeed, Paul: the foremost ranks Polybius was writing of were that of Hannibal's third line, his only crack one, disposed in what was possibly the first 'true reserve' in military history - close enough to deliver a decisive blow if the opportunity arose, but far enough back to prevent the envelopment of his army. It was this deployment that thwarted Scipio from using any of his reformed tactics which had worked so well before at Baecula, Ilipa, and the Great Plains. Hannibal's plan was sound with what he had at his disposal, but Scipio was able to economize his strength outstandingly, and it was the superior cavalry squadrons that decided a slogfest devoid of any tactical mastery; this usually happens when two very good captians (in this case, two great captains) square off. I believe Scipio could not have wanted Massinissa and Laelius riding off the battlefield, into the desert after a 'defeated ' foe, handing Hannibal the advantage (potentially) in an infantry fight, one which would be compelled head-on due to Hannibal's retention of his veterans (why would Scipio decide to fight head-on, after all his efficacious reforms?); it is quite possible Hannibal tried to sacrifice his cavalry in a running fight, as it takes longer for a simulated flight to turn into an actual defeat, and it is generally believed, unlike at Cannae, that the decisive cavalry blow was somewaht dilatory. I also don't believe the elephants, which Scipio neutralized extremely well, caused the havoc which has been intimated - as if they turned round 160 degres or so and caused Hannibal's horsemen, on both sides, to flee so quickly. Sure, they caused confusion and isorder, but also upon the Italic riders and Massinissa. But we have to keep in mind that the terrain here was not helpful in controlling pursuing cavalry. But, on the flip side, Massinissa and Laelius were by now seasoned and adept cavalry leaders. Conjecture can be as fun as it is inconclusive in such matters!

However, the 'fugitives' Polybius mentions being precluded from entering Hannibal's front of his third line are those from the previously vanquished first two lines; it was perhaps good fortune for Scipip they turned on each other, which didn't require the bringing in of his rear ranks, which is what Hannibal wanted. B.H. Liddell Hart, in his famed biography of Scipio, seemingly makes an error, pg. 182, when discussing Hannibal's 'Old Guard' in the final stages of Zama: he mentions Livy's tribute to the quality of Hannibal's 'Old Guard' as equal to Scipio's men,

"...Livy's tribute is borne out by the fierceness and the for long uncertain issue of the subsequent conflict, which gives the lie to those who pretend that Hannibal's 'Old Guard' was but a shadow of its former power days of Trasimene and Cannae..."

I'm all for pedantry, Paul, and Sir Basil can be questioned with his circumlocution here. The 'Old Guard', (ie, his African troops that had been with him since leaving Spain), were certainly now but a handful, and indeed a shadow of their former days, in terms of quantity. No historian I know of (Hart is brilliant with his strategic narrrative, but condescending upon others with whom he disagrees), writining of this subject, 'pretended' that Hannibal's crack troops were anything less, as great fighters, than they had always been. The Bruttians, which comprised the bulk of his third line, maybe 10,000+, were the best troops that had joined him in Italy in the months ansd years following Cannae, thus they were definitely not with Hannibal at Trasimene and Cannae. Hart's book is invaluable to balance the disproportionate condition of the relative evalutions of Hannibal and Scipio, but can be questioned in not only his denigrating of Hannibal, but of Alexander, Caesar, Frederick, and Napoleon. Despite the positives of his great book, it reads like a handbook of his theories of warfare, imputing its use to Scipio.

Peter Connolly, opining that Hannibal's veterans numbered only 4,000 in all, also makes a mistake, Pg. 205 of his Greece and Rome at War,

"...Polybius implies that Hannibal's veterans were roughly equal in number to the hastati who opposed them, about 5,000 strong..."

Actually, Polybius doesn't imply that, unless I'm reading something different than what Connolly drew from (in the early 1970s?): what Polybius states in Book 15.14 is,

"...after conveying the wounded to the rear and recalling by bugle those of the hastati who were still pursuing the enemy, he stationed the latter in the fore part of the field of battle, opposite the enemy's centre, and making the principes and triarii close up on both wings ordered them to advance over the dead. When these troops had surmounted the obstacles and found themselves in a line with the hastati the two phalanxes closed with the greatest eagerness and ardour. As they were nearly equal in numbers as well as in spirit and bravery, and were equally well armed, the contest was for long doubtful, the men falling where they stood out of determination, and Massanissa and Laelius, returning from the pursuit of the cavalry, arrived providentially at the proper moment..."

Perhaps and editor sould have picked this up. It was not Hannibal's veterans who were roughly equal in number to Scipio's hastati, but nearly equal in numbers to Scipio's reformed battle line of the combined hastati, principes, and triarii; Scipio's hastati were opposite Hannibal's center, and the principes and triarii were moved onto the sides of the hastati. This specific maneuver was indicative of Scipio's skill at innovating the Roman war machine to greater flexibility; at this juncture, there was no reason to maintain the intervals between his maniples, as now the best thing to do would be to maximize his missile power upon Hannibal's veterans, in attempt to contain them until the cavalry returned upon the enemy rear. This meant lengthening his line with no intervals. But victory would depend on the return of the cavalry, which was probable but still had not happened, probably because of Hannibal's probable tactic of luring them away for as long as possible (the pro-Roman historians don't even suggest this, but it seems plausible, given his mindset with such things). Massinissa and Laelius would have likely been back by now, if indeed Hannibal's horsemen had been veritably defeated from the get-go (we know they all left the battlefield quickly). Hannibal now had an isolated advantage: his 'Old Guard', who, to reiterate, were roughly equal in numbers to and directly opposite the hastati. The hastati would be outmatched here, though perhaps not considerably, but there were no rear ranks to support them. Hypothetically, Scipio could have been pierced in his center, by troops more seasoned in that spot and with a, presumably, deeper line behind them. Hannibal knew he had no cavalry coming back, so he needed to penetrate as much and quickly as possible. Hannibal's remaining veterans, with, presumably, support from the rekindled fugitives of the first two lines behind them, could probably hold up against the Roman flanks better than the hastati could against Hannibal's 'Old Guard'. But the Roman/Numidian cavalry was surely coming back eventually, and Scipio was fighting in a containing struggle, buying for more time. It must have been very close until the 'providential' return of Massinissa and Laelius.

Sean Manning:
Quote:...Geoffrey Parker has noted that the Spanish Army of Flanders suffered about 2% attrition per month, whether in combat or not. There were more nasty diseases in 16th-17th century Flanders than the Roman world, and support for troops was somewhat more primitive (eg. tents were scarce). On the other hand, this was probably the best army in the world of its day, and it was living in fairly easy terrain (except during sieges) and the richest region in Europe...
Indeed. Moreover, and in the broad scope, inadequate support for an army on campaign overseas (or across enemy borders) would lead to mutiny or military collapse. I believe Michael Roberts (or Robert Frost?) also emphasizes the danger of attritional war in the war in Ducal Prussia between Gustavus Adolphus and the Polish army, which was led, after late 1626, by the vastly underrated Stanislaw Koniecpolski (from my view); we are told of the imminent 'melting away' of both armies, as Gustavus would not fight the vaunted Polish cavalry unless fortifications and artillery were favorable, and Koniecpolski wouldn't be lured in. The Poles were bested if caught unawares by Gustavus' cavalry with higher numbers (Battle of Tczew), but the Swedes were beaten if they were caught out in the open (Trcziana). The Poles couldn't levy enough infantry, due to tax problems, which Koniecpolski would soon aid in balancing. Anyway, we read of the terrible effects of attritional war, and the diseases which were suffered by the field forces.

Thanks, James Smile
"A ship in harbor is safe - but that is not what ships are built for."

James K MacKinnon
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#41
Gaius Marcus:
Quote:So..........was that two legions or four, sir? :roll:
:lol: Sorry, Byron. Brevity is not my strongpoint.

Scipio sailed from Lilybaeum (modern Marsala), probably in the late spring of 204 B.C., with a consular army of unprecedented strength - two legions, the 5th and 6th, and two alae. During this timeperiod, one legion on campaign, unless under the command of a praetor, should be assumed to mean one Roman legion and its allied contingent. But for one who wants to distinguish the allied legion from the Roman, Scipio went to Africa with four legions.

If I may, with all this talk of Zama, I pasted over my assessment of the battle for this thread.

The works of Polybius and Livy, and other ancient writers, are available online:

[url:3ue743l2]http://www.uvm.edu/~bwalsh/RomanHistory/RomanHistory.html[/url]

I feel we should always keep in mind that much of antiquity, with the great Battle of Zama not exlusive form that proclamation, presents ground for modern speculation. Polybius was a fine historian who wanted to establish the truth of events, but though we might expect him to have been hostile to the Romans for causing him to be exiled from his own country, he did work and live under the patronage of the Scipionic circle. This meant he was in a very favorable situation to understand how the Roman political and military systems worked. He could be critical of Roman actions, such as their seizure of Sardinia in the wake of Carthage's 'Mercenary War', but his absorbing interest as to why Rome came to be the dominant power in his world certainly led him to see things through Roman eyes.

Scipio was a brilliant general, evidenced here at Zama by the fact he knew he had the better army (particularly the cavalry arm), thus by not making any major mistakes, Hannibal could not exploit anything. His countering of the elephants was masterly, but the elephant drivers were possibly trained to kill them if they became unmanageable. Killing an out-of-control elephant with a hammer and spike was no child's play, but it did not take years for men to learn this. Only Livy writes of this Carthaginian tactic, and only with regards to Hasdrubal Barca. But that doesn't mean Hannibal didn't undertake this countering practice. It would make sense that he did.

However, I disagree with anyone who claims Hannibal was a spent force at Zama. he was now 45 years old, and there is no reason to think that he wasn't suffering exhaustion. The stress factor certainly was every bit as prevalent in ancient times. His actions after Zama do not illustrate a man not having still an iron will, resilient determination, and a sound mind. To use the raw elephants in such numbers as a shock force was, in my opinion, the most prudent decision. Please try to remember that Hannibal certainly knew all about the strengths and liabilities of these pachydrms - certainly more than Scipio. He probably hoped they would do their stuff, but he could easily have known they would do exactly what they did do - swerve out to the flanks and disrupt things, which would aid his possible plan of deception of sacrificing his inferior cavalry to lure the better Roman/Numidian contingent away from the battlefield. He had done such things before with feigned withdrawals etc. (the ager Falernus, the Rhone, Tarentum). Again, there is nothing to indicate that the 45-47 year old Hannibal had lost any of his touch.

For the most part, Livy and Appian take a back seat to Polybius. We don't know exactly the relative strengths of the two armies, but many feel that Hannibal did not outnumber Scipio as much as the ancients claimed. Remember, this was a frontal engagement devoid of flank attacks or oblique lines etc., and though Scipio's army was more experienced (except Hannibal's 3rd line) and of higher quality, this wasn't Alexander against the motley levies of Asia, Caesar's X or XIII Legion against the unweildy Gauls, or even Belisarius' famed bucellarii against city mobs and Vandals. There is no way Scipio would have been hanging on in the final stages of the battle if his infantry had been outnumbered significantly, such as 50,000 vs. 23,000 or so as Appian claims. It is improbable that 4,000 Macedonians under one Sopater were part of Hannibal's 2nd line, as Livy would have us believe. Polybius, a Hellene himself, would have mentioned that.

Basically the armies were as follows:

Scipio: approx. 30,000 infantry, and 5,500-6,100 cavalry.

Hannibal: approx. 40,000 infantry (probably less), 80 elephants, and 3-4,000 cavalry.

I'll be glad to break this all down if one asks. Both great generals took risks with their movements before the battle, Scipio to avoid fighting while without Masinissa (he endangered his communications), and Hannibal to bring on the battle in an attempt to interpose between Scipio and Masinissa (he wasn't fully prepared). Fortune, wrought by terrific maneuvering (he ransacked the interior, forcing Hannibal out earlier than Hannibal wanted, and closed the gap between he and Massinissa), was with Scipio when Masinissa arrived with 10,000 men before Hannibal could intercept either one of them.

Let's take a look at the Battle of Zama from Polybius Book 15.12-15,

"...When all was ready for battle on both sides, the Numidian horse having been skirmishing with each other for some time, Hannibal ordered the drivers of the elephants to charge the enemy. When the trumpets and bugles sounded shrilly from all sides, some of the animals took fright and at once turned tail and rushed back upon the Numidians who had come up to help the Carthaginians, and Massanissa attacking simultaneously, the Carthaginian left wing was soon left exposed. The rest of the elephants falling on the Roman velites in the space between the two main armies, both inflicted and suffered much loss, until finally in their terror some of them escaped through the gaps in the Roman line with Scipio's foresight had provided, so that the Romans suffered no injury, while others fled towards the right and, received by the cavalry with showers of javelins, at length escaped out of the field. It was at this moment that Laelius, availing himself of the disturbance created by the elephants, charged the Carthaginian cavalry and forced them to headlong flight. He pressed the pursuit closely, as likewise did Massanissa. In the meanwhile both phalanxes slowly and in imposing array advanced on each other, except the troops which Hannibal had brought back from Italy, who remained in their original position. When the phalanxes were close to each other, Romans fell upon their foes, raising their war-cry and clashing their shields with their spears as is their practice, while there was a strange confusion of shouts raised by the Carthaginian mercenaries, for, as Homer says, their voice was not one, but

Mixed was the murmur, and confused the sound,
Their names all various,
as appears from the list of them I gave above.

As the whole battle was a hand-to-hand affair, the mercenaries at first prevailed by their courage and skill, wounding many of the Romans, but the latter still continued to advance, relying on their admirable order and on the superiority of their arms. The rear ranks of the Romans followed close on their comrades, cheering them on, but the Carthaginians behaved like cowards, never coming near their mercenaries nor attempting to back them up, so that finally the barbarians gave way, and thinking that they had evidently been left in the lurch by their own side, fell upon those they encountered in their retreat and began to kill them. This actually compelled many of the Carthaginians to die like men; for as they were being butchered by their own mercenaries they were obliged against their will to fight both against these and against the Romans, and as when at bay they showed frantic and extraordinary courage, they killed a considerable number both of their mercenaries and of the enemy. In this way they even threw the cohorts of the hastati into confusion, but the officers of the principes, seeing what was happening, brought up their ranks to assist, and now the greater number of the Carthaginians and their mercenaries were cut to pieces where they stood, either by themselves or by the hastati. Hannibal did not allow the survivors in their flight to mix with his own men but, ordering the foremost ranks to level their spears against them, prevented them from being received into his force. They were therefore obliged to retreat towards the wings and the open ground beyond. The space which separated the two armies still on the field was now covered with blood, slaughter, and dead bodies, and the Roman general was placed in great difficulty by this obstacle to his completing the rout of the enemy. For he saw that it would be very difficult to pass over the ground without breaking his ranks owing to the quantity of slippery corpses which were still soaked in blood and had fallen in heaps and the number of arms thrown away at haphazard. However, after conveying the wounded to the rear and recalling by bugle those of the hastati who were still pursuing the enemy, he stationed the latter in the fore part of the field of battle, opposite the enemy's centre, and making the principes and triarii close up on both wings ordered them to advance over the dead. When these troops had surmounted the obstacles and found themselves in a line with the hastati the two phalanxes closed with the greatest eagerness and ardour. As they were nearly equal in numbers as well as in spirit and bravery, and were equally well armed, the contest was for long doubtful, the men falling where they stood out of determination, and Massanissa and Laelius, returning from the pursuit of the cavalry, arrived providentially at the proper moment. When they fell on Hannibal's army from the rear, most of the men were cut down in their ranks, while of those who took to flight only quite a few escaped, as the cavalry were close on them and the country was level. More than fifteen hundred Romans fell, the Carthaginian loss amounting to twenty thousand killed and nearly the same number of prisoners.

Such was the result of the final battle between Scipio and Hannibal, the battle which decided the war in favour of Rome..."


OK. Breakdown time :wink:

We have to assign the motives of Hannibal and Scipio where Polybius does not.

Hannibal was weaker in cavalry and numerically stronger in infantry. Thus he surely would aim at a decision by his infantry (for the first time). His cavalry would have little hope of success, so he would somehow want to nullify the superior Roman/Numidian cavalry while his infantry won the day. Hannibal's use of three independent lines compensated to a degree for the lack of time in which to blend the varied elements into a homogenous command structure.

Scipio would need to handle the elephants first (after the preliminary skirmishing). He probably learned from Regulus' failure in 255 B.C., in which the elephants were attempted to be absorbed by infantry mass from doubling the intervals. The part that somewhat worked for Regulus, though probably inadvertantly, at Tunes was by abandoning the checkerboard formation, lanes were created, which created a line of least resistence for the elephants. But he was far outmatched in cavalry that day 53 years earlier. Scipio achieved the nullification of the elephant charge by creating lanes and deafening noise from bugles and trumpets (and probably exuding screams from his troops). Now he would doubtless attempt, in some form or another, his tactics which had worked brilliantly before, with increased efficiency, at Baecula, Ilipa, and the Great Plains. Overall, Scipio would attempt to expose Hannibal's wings with his superior cavalry squadrons, hold the enemy's first line, and send out his principes and triarii to outflank Hannibal.

But Hannibal adopted a Roman-style triple-line, and placed his third line, his best, about 200 yards behind the 2nd (perhaps 100 yards seperated the first two lines). When his first two lines advanced, he evidently ordered his third to stand fast. This could be the very first 'true reserve' in the history of warfare, and this disposition immediately thwarted Scipio from any outflanking maneuver; Hannibal could also use his third line offensively as the battle progressed, hopefully for a coup de grace.

I think Hannibal ordered his cavalry units to give ground in order to draw their counterparts off the field. It explains the ease with which Scipio won this part of the battle, and why they returned at a late stage. A. Goldsworthy, one of the finest scholars on Roman history disagrees, but the likes of H.H. Scullard, J. Kromayer, and G. Veith all think so. J.F. Lazenby thinks it is likely. However, Hannibal was taking a risk by doing so, because it still involved their defeat, exposed his flanks, and the Roman/Numidian cavalry could return before he had finished off Scipio's smaller body of infantry. But he had to do something, and I don't think if they had held their ground they would have lasted long. The fact it was pretty close later shows Hannibal made a viable decision. Furthermore, Scipio had superior cavalry and proved his adeptness with 'boomerang' style tactics before. Hannibal was a student of war, and a master of simple and double bluff. He knew his history, particularly that of the Hellenistic kingdoms (he had Greek tutors). He knew what happened to Antigonus when his son, Demetrius Poliorcetes, went off in pursuit of Seleucus' cavalry at the great battle of Ipsus in 301 B.C. Did Scipio order his cavalry merely ride out and ride back in the manner they did? Why didn't Scipio try a flank maneuver, as Hannibal had done at Cannae? He was certainly capable, and with superior material at his disposal. True, cavalry was notoriously difficult to control, but let me offer Professor H.H. Scullard's credible statement from his terrific Scipio Africanus: Soldier and Politician pg. 150,

"...Since it would take longer to convert a nominal into an actual flight than to drive a defeated enemy off the field, and since in fact the Roman cavalry only returned in the nick of time, it seems more probable that the Carthaginians deliberatley drew them away.

After getting rid of the Roman cavalry, though with little hope that his own could rally against them, Hannibal would throw all his weight against Scipio's numerically inferior enemy. The elephant charge, with which he had hoped to confuse his foe, miscarried somewhat, partly through Scipio's foresight in leaving gaps in his line for the animals to run through, partly because they were always of rather doubtful quality, and here fell afoul of the Carthaginian cavalry. However, they cannot have done great harm to their own side, since their drivers had the means of killing them if they got out of hand..."


I bolded the last sentence because if this was the case (we'll never know for sure), it means the 'scattered cavalry' of Hannibal were quickly vanquished because they were in a running fight. I need to be careful - I have no right to theorize to the point of appending soemthing not even mentioned, even slightly, as a remote possibility, by our ancient sources. I would like to add to Scullard's theory; Polybius only mentions it was Hannibal's left flank that was disrupted by elephants sent out of control. On the right flank he tells us that the scattered elephants,

"...at length escaped out of the field. It was at this moment that Laelius, availing himself of the disturbance created by the elephants, charged the Carthaginian cavalry and forced them to headlong flight..."

How did Gaius Laelius so easily send the Carthaginian cavaly, though green but not outnumbered (assuming Masinissa's 4,000-strong were not interdispersed with the Romans), into such quick flight? The flight seemed immediate! The answer is they were ordered to give ground. Can we believe that any mass 'confusion' caused by maybe 25 elephants (on each flank) send thousands of horsemen into disorder, and the horsemen who 'exploited the 'confusion' so easily rode in and sent them into flight, without being impeded by the scattered elephants themselves? Did the elephants disrupt only Hannibal's men, and then get out of the way of Massinissa and Laelius, allowing them to charge in with stout authority?

B.H. Liddell Hart says on pg. 179 of his renowned (but extremely tendentious) Scipio Africanus: Greater Than Napoleon,

"...Both Hannibal's flanks were thus stripped bare. The decisive maneuver of Cannae was repeated, but reversed..."

No, Sir Basil, with all due respect, the decisive maneuver at Cannae was Hannibal having his infantry wings wheel inwards to attack the Roman flanks, once his crescent formation of Gauls and Spaniards had sucked the huge Roman infantry body in towards them. By achieving this, the Roman infantry's forward pressure funnelled itself into a colossal trap. Hannibal's heavy cavalry turned a Roman defeat into an annihilation. It was entirely different here at Zama, and Scipio's cavalry were off the battlefield, too. Hannibal's placement of his third line prevented any similar maneuverings from Scipio's legions here at Zama as Hannibal had achieved at Cannae. This battle was also entirely different from Cannae with the cavalry, as Scipio did not attempt any flank maneuvers. Perhaps he took the very open terrain into account, but the fact he didn't attempt outflanking maneuvers with better cavalry squadrons lends even more credibility to the possibility that Hannibal's cavalry was luring them away in a rearguard action. Although he countered the elephant charge, Scipio was not in a substantially favorable position whatsoever at this point.

Back to the possible intentions of the two generals, Hannibal prevented any outflanking by Scipio's infantry because of his 3rd line being held back. But this disposition of Hannibal's wasn't entirely to prevent encirclement from Scipio. The third line was ready to act offensively if and when a suitable moment presented itself. If Scipio did not realize this in time and was too imbroiled in the fighting to make any changes, then his attack would be against the first 2 of Hannibal's lines, and when that was spent, Hannibal could attack with his fresh veterans, hopefully delivering a decisive blow as his cavalry was holding off Masinissa and Laelius.

Alternativley, if Scipio did realize Hannibal's trap of making him fight towards the third line (thus blunting his energy and weapons) in time and forced to forget about any outflanking possibility, Hannibal was in no worse position, because Scipio would rely on the traditional Roman method of three supporting lines whose weight would fall on Hannibal's first two lines, after which the weary legionnaires would have to advance against Hannibal's intact third line.

In my opinion, with the exception of the elephants, Hannibal was in the slightly better position amid the infantry clash. His first line, the remnants of Mago's army, fought bravely against the hastati. However, according to Polybius, they received no support from the 2nd line, who 'acted like cowards'. It is likely that Polybius is wrong, and the second line didn't support the first not from cowardice, but because they were ordered not to at this point. Hannibal was attempting to keep his three lines as distinct as possible, with each line being thrown in separately. It was a sound plan, but such a deployment required good discipline, which wasn't extant here. The mercenaries of the first line turned against the second line. If Polybius' account of the fierce struggle between the first two of Hannibal's lines is taken at face value, this incident may have been, as Georg Veith suggests, a stroke of fortune that saved Scipio and wrecked Hannibal's plan. By this time, if not a little sooner, Scipio certainly knew that he couldn't outflank Hannibal in face of the Carthaginian's well-disposed third line. Thus he was challenged by the task of fighting a purely frontal engagement, in which Hannibal's chances were greater. Hannibal's first two lines, in cooperation, would have forced Scipio to use all his ranks. But they turned on each other, which Scipio prudently exploited by not commiting the bulk of his principes and none of his triarii, and then breaking off the battle to reorganize. Presumably many of the remnants, perhaps just a handful, of his first two lines had fled to his wings and were regrouped and implemented into the third line.

Again, Hannibal was hoping that as many Romans as possible became involved at this juncture with his first two lines, so that he could use his third line to deliver a devastating blow before Scipio's cavalry returned.

A couple of diificulties about Polybius' account come up. What happened after the clash between the mercenaries (first line) and the Carthaginian militia (second line)? Polybius says,

"...the greater number of the Carthaginians and their mercenaries were cut to pieces where they stood, either by themselves or by the hastati..."

Therefore, only Hannibal's veterans were left? This is not possible, because if Hannibal's veterans stood alone and uncommited, he would not have needed time to reorganize, as his accepting (or permitting?) of the pause suggests. Moreover, Polybius' earlier statement is now contradicted by his later claim that,

"...As they were nearly equal in numbers as well as in spirit and bravery, and were equally well armed, the contest was for long doubtful..."

This could not have been so if nearly all the first two lines of Hannibal's had been scattered. Oh well, call me a nitpicker :ermm:

Maybe Polybius meant the mercenaries alone, or simply exaggerated 'the greater part' of the Carthaginians. What is probable is that the hastati, and but a small portion of the principes, did not completely defeat Hannibal's first two lines, numbering some 20,000+ men.

The role played by Scipio's 2nd line, the principes, is a little cloudy. If by stating,

"...the officers of the principes, seeing what was happening, brought up their ranks to assist...,

...Polybius means that the principes aided the hastati in the normal manner, this would mean that both lines moved forward, which would explain the recovery of the hastati and the subsequent flight of Hannibal's first two lines. But Polybius later tells us,

"... after conveying the wounded to the rear and recalling by bugle those of the hastati who were still pursuing the enemy..."

Mmmmm. Maybe we can asssume Polybius meant the principes kept close to the hastati during the intial advance, then halted and the hastati went on alone.

The hastati seemed to have got into a precarious position in pursuing the broken lines of Hannibal's poorer troops, which Hannibal was forcing out to the flanks of his third line. They were dangerously exposed upon coming face to face with Hannibal and his veterans. Scipio had to relieve them quickly! They didn't follow the scattered mercenaries and Carthagininas because we later find them in the center when Scipio extended his entire body of infantry. They were recalled and Scipio reorganized his line. This is where Roman cohesion and discipline came into play. But Hannibal showed sound judgment by not immediately attacking the isolated hastati, or perhaps supplemented by some principes; this would have entailed committing his last troops into the fight while Scipio had nearly two lines intact, which could now outflank him. Thus he was ready for a pause to reorganize too. The battlefield impeded both armies as it was encumbered with bodies and slippery with blood. An advance had to be carried out carefully.

Scipio now lengthened his line by bringing up his rear ranks on the flanks of the hastati, with the gaps between the maniples closed up. There was now no need for Scipio to keep any intervals between his maniples, as the final blow with Hannibal's third line should be as concentrated as possible, thus no seperate engagements were necessary. Depth was now of lesser value than maximizing his missile power upon Hannibal's last line. This was superb generalship, as Scipio was clearly making allowances for his (presumably) returning cavalry. He needed to be quick because Hannibal, solidifying his deeper line of veterans and remnanats of the first two lines, would have a slight advantage in a prolonged infantry clash at this point, particularly in the center, where his 'Old Guard' (Polybius mentions they lowered their spears to prevent any mingling of the first two lines' fugitives within his front, thus they were indeed his African spearmen, who had been with him since the beginning) were opposite the hastati. But Scipio wasn't fighting this last phase to win as quickly as possible, as Hannibal surely was; he was fighting for containment, presuming his cavalry squadrons were coming back. This was a fair presumption, but they weren't back yet! The Carthaginian horse (commander unkown) and Numidians under Tychaeus (Hannibal's ally) seemed to be (somewhat) achieving some success at keeping the superior enemy horses away from the infantry action. Remember, if it wasn't the case, and we'll never know for sure, that Hannibal did not sacrifice his horses to lure Scipio's cavalry units away, then this was not very marked leadership on the part of Scipio, Gaius Laelius, and Masinissa. It would have been similar to Prince Rupert's pursuit at Naseby 1,443 years later, who chased the Parliamentarian dragoons too far, thus his belated return was ineffective to aid the Royalists' cause against Cromwell.

The infantry clash commenced, with the two great generals at the helm of two great units in a front-to-front slugfest. We can never know for sure who had the 'upper hand' here, but Hannibal's line of his veterans was deeper, so via deductive logic, Scipio would have been broken up. But if he wasn't waiting for the returning cavalry, his dispositions would have been different. He must have smiled from ear to ear when the approaching sound of hoofs and rising dust of the desert was the thundering return of Gaius Laelius and Masinissa. They took Hannibal's veterans in the rear, and rolled them up. It is very ironic that many of the Cannae legions, whom Scipio levied in Sicily some four years earlier, were involved in on of Rome's greatest victory.

Polybius clearly identified Hannibal's handicap at Zama and does give him some praise when he wrote in Book 15.16,

"...But nevertheless to meet each of these advantages Hannibal had shown incomparable skill in adopting at the critical moment all such measures as were in his power and could reasonably be expected to succeed...".

However, a couple of sentences later he writes,

"...For there are times when Fortune counteracts the plans of valiant men, and again at times, as the proverb says, 'A brave man meets another braver yet', as we may say happened in the case of Hannibal..."

Scipio braver than Hannibal? Mmmm. This is where Polybius' bias may slip a bit.

Again, Scipio displayed brilliant generalship by not trying to do too much, and defending his advantage. Letting things take care of themselves is often the smart thing to do. Scipio was trying to win this battle, not outgeneral Hannibal, in terms of individual wizardry etc. Hannibal tried to wear Scipio down, but Scipio was able to engage Hannibal's veterans with about 3/5 of his infantry hitherto uncommited. But like with many battles of our own civil war (I am an American), or maybe Hastings, Lutzen, Waterloo, or El Alamein, the better general did not necessarily win, in my opinion. I am bias though; I think Hannibal was a remarkable leader, and his plight against such an unyielding foe for nearly two decades, in which he received only grudging support from home (he wasn't banking on any outside support soon after Cannae), was exemplary. Hart is incorrect, in my opinion, with his coment on Pg. 118 of Scipio Africanus: Greater Than Napoleon,

"...For a venture of such magnitude, he was worse supported by the Senate than even Hannibal by Carthage..."

The venture Hart is referring to is Scipio's African expedition, and though he couldn't levy from Italy, besides his 7,000 volunteers, never in Rome's history was a general issued blank check, and Sicily, his base of supply etc. and a duck's walk from where he would be campaigning, was never hampered with, in comparison to Hannibal's great venture into Italy. Hannibal took a gamble, and it didn't work, but Hart and others seem to intimate that Hannibal, because he undertook the challenge of building up and defending a broad alliance system, and practically co-ordinated the entire Carthaginian war effort, is somehow guilty of strategic blunders due to the failures of the Carthaginian army and navy in other theaters, and failures to reinforce him from Spain and Africa. Rome indeed had 'command of the sea', but the that hardly carried the advantage it did in modern times. As far as we know, Hannibal never had a Quintus Caecilius Metellus, a fine public speaker in favor of Scipio who prevailed for Scipio's cause against the likes of Fabius and Cato, positioned in the Carthaginian senate to fight for his cause.

"Hannibal was the son of Hamilcar, and a native of Carthage. If it be true, as no one doubts, that the Roman people excelled all other nations in warlike merit, it is not to be disputed that Hannibal surpassed other commanders in ability as much as the Romans surpassed all other people in valour; for as often as he engaged with the Romans in Italy, he always came off with the advantage; and, had not his efforts been paralyzed by the envy of his countrymen at home, he would appear to have been capable of getting the mastery over the Romans. But the jealous opposition of many prevailed against the ability of one. He, however, so cherished in his mind the hatred which his father had borne the Romans, and which was left him, as it were, by bequest, that he laid down his life before he would abate it; for even when he was exiled from his country, and stood in need of support from others, he never ceased in thought to make war with the Romans".

-Cornelius Nepos

Thanks, James Smile
"A ship in harbor is safe - but that is not what ships are built for."

James K MacKinnon
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#42
Glad I read Goldworthy's Hannibal! :roll:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#43
Well this thread brightened up my day.
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#44
(09-06-2020, 01:29 AM)Steven James Wrote: Well this thread brightened up my day.

Thanks for bumping this thread Steven, I`ll read it presently!
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#45
Michael wrote:
Thanks for bumping this thread Steven, I`ll read it presently!

It is worth reading in order to observe the various research styles, which are mostly based on speculation. Some have entered the discussion with a biased opinion and only present information that they believe substantiates such opinion. Most of it is based on simple comparisons of numbers, and numbers carefully selected from other historical events. This is the road to nowhere.

For me personally, to employ data relating to Julius Caesar’s fleet of 54 BC or the Athenian fleet at Syracuse as given by Thucydides in order to determine the size of Scipio’s fleet in 204 BC is a flawed methodology. What if Caesar’s fleet numbers for 54 BC was incorrect? A faulty premise produces an incorrect answer. The following examples of fleet numbers are contained within a 47 year time period.

Plutarch (Pompey 11 2) has Pompey, with a fleet of 120 warships, and 800 transports conveying six full legions to Africa. Appian (BC 5 98) has Lepidus with a fleet of 70 warships and 1,000 transports, conveying 12 legions and 500 Numidian cavalry. Here we find 6 legions require 120 warships and 800 transports, while 12 legions require 70 warships and 1,000 transports, a disparity of 50 warships and 200 transports. If six legions require 800 transports, then surely 12 legions would require 1,600 transports?

In 54 BC, Caesar has 5 legions and 2,000 cavalry conveyed to over 800 ships including those built by individuals. This would allocate each legion 160 ships. Pompey needs 800 transports for six legions, whereas Caesar needs 800 transports for five legions.

In 55 BC, Caesar (BG 4 22) (BG 4 28) has about 80 ships and 18 horse transports conveying over two legions to Britain. Caesar (BG 4 37) also mentions from two ships about 300 soldiers were drawn. 80 ships multiplied by 300 soldiers per ship would produce 24,000 soldiers. 80 ships multiplied by the lower figure of 200 soldiers per ship would produce 16,000 soldiers. Both figures do not conform to an army of two legions (around 10,000 men). However, to upset the apple cart, in 37 BC, Appian (The Civil War 5 25) has Murcus joined Sextius Pompeius’ with two legions and 80 ships, which concurs with Caesar. Appian (The Civil War 5 26) has Domitius Ahenobarbus with two legions and 70 ships. In 25/26 BC, Strabo (16 4 23) has Aelius Gallus sailed to Arabia Felix with no less than 80 biremes, triremes and phaseloi ships, 130 transports to convey about 10,000 Roman infantry, 500 Jews and 1,000 Nabataeans. The 10,000 Roman infantry would equate to two legions, with the total of 11,500 men requiring 210 vessels.

To explain the disparities, one could use Caesar’s comment that on his return journey from Britain to Gaul in 54 BC, the men were cramped into the ships. So the different ships and legion numbers could mean on some occasions this happened and on other occasions it did not. However, can this be proven? The only way to get direct results is to go after the ship sizes as given above, and to keep the numbers in period. The Roman navy is constantly changing. The Roman fleet of the First Punic War is different to the Roman fleet of the Second Punic War, which again is different to the Roman fleet of Caesar’s day. Keeping the research in period makes it that much easier to expose organizational changes to the fleet. I like to keep the information in intervals of 50 year periods.

Thankfully, Caesar leaves behind a mathematical signature or pattern. If Caesar is outnumbered, he does not exaggerate the enemies’ numbers, but provides accurate accounting, such as the battle of Pharsalus. If he wants to impress his Roman readers, which is the reason for his commentaries, he exaggerates. His 800 ships for 5 legions for 54 BC is one such example of exaggeration, with Caesar imprinting on the minds of his reader his ship building powers. The 80 ships fleet to Britain in 55 BC has been reduced in size by mathematical mistake or design to show with so little, how much he accomplished. Whatever the reason, he had far more than 80 ships. A comparison between the actual number and Caesar’s figures reveal his mathematical approach.

Did Caesar actually have 120 ships with each ship conveying 80 men? Or 80 ships conveying 120 men? Instead of the infantry of each troop type being allocated their own ships (example 20 ships of hastati, 20 ships of princeps), could the 80 infantry per ship consist of 20 auxiliaries (archers and slingers), 20 hastati, 20 princeps and 20 pilani. Caesar does mention arrows and slings being fired from his ships while trying to land in Britain, so can this ship arrangement be ruled out?

If 80 cavalrymen were allocated to a warship, Caesar’s 2,000 cavalry for 54 BC, would require 25 warships, which is getting close to Caesar’s earlier fleet number of 28 warships and 600 transports. The 28 warships multiplied by 80 equals 2,240 cavalry, which can be organised into 70 squadrons each of 32 cavalrymen. While encamped in Britain, Caesar left 10 cohorts and 300 cavalry to guard the ships. Has the 300 cavalry been rounded from 320 cavalry by rounding each of the 10 squadrons of 32 cavalry to 30 cavalry? Did Caesar have 7 alae of 320 cavalry? Afer the removal of the guard cavalry, I found that for Scipio’s army of 204 BC that Scipio had six alae of 320 cavalry.

What if Caesar’s figure of two ships drawing about 300 soldiers was actually 320 soldiers (80 x 4), or 160 soldiers per ships (double 80), which could accord with Caesar’s claim the soldiers were cramped on the ships for the home journey due to losing 40 ships from storms and another 60 blown back to Gaul.

So how safe is it now to use Caesar’s fleet of 80 ships for two legions as a comparison for Scipio’s fleet of 204 BC?
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