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Goffredo · 08-18-2002, 01:15 PM

A question as this topic has come up before and in other fora. 
 
Is there any work done since DNA techniques became standard that addresses explicitely and quantitatively the issue of the difference of modern europeans with the ancients, and how and when the differences occurred? 
 
I am not an expert, infact I am completely ignorant. I only suspect that 2000 years is "not much" of a time interval but in complete honesty I have no quantitative knowledge of genetics of human populations so I don't know what "not much" is. 
 
But I do know that the eurasia has always been crossed by invasions and never was a "calm" place (i.e. "pax" of the roman empire was actually an exception). 
 
Ciao 
P.S. I am a red head Italian with Swiss (father) and Italian (mother) genes. Red hair is carried by a recessive gene and for it to be manifest I must have gotten it from both families. I like to think there is some Longobard in my mother's ancient family that were in Gubbio (Umbria) as far back as 1100s.

08-18-2002, 02:13 PM

Interesting notion. I too, would be interested in any info anyone has. I'm half Italian and half German (approx), and I've always wondered who my relations would be in ancient times.

08-18-2002, 05:28 PM

This is interesting, and I suspect somewhat of the same occurance happening in north america, since we all came from Europe in the first place (except the native indians of course), and with the large amount of immigrants coming to the US and Canada every year provides for an intersting comibination of genetics. Good for the species I suppose. "Only Trajan could go to Dacia." 
 
Magnus/Matt 
Optio 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"

08-18-2002, 06:30 PM

Both my mother and father's sides are Italian but I can find German, Greek, and Spanish in their families. Although I'm mostly Italian I hardly look like one at all. This is interesting becuase everyone else in my family looks like your average Joe Italian. Olive skin, dark hair, big noses where applicable, and the other typical features. I on the other hand have light skin, lighter golden brown hair, and red facial hair. I assume I've taken the looks of my German ancestry. There is such a stark contrast between me and my siblings that my friends have asked me 'What does your mailman look like?' 
 
Despite all of this, I do have brown eyes and the broad Italian jaw-line...oh and hairy arms. This is a really interesting topic and I too would like to know of any research done regarding DNA testing of past and present nationalities.

Thiudareiks Flavius · 08-19-2002, 12:44 AM

I recall an episode of the British popular archaeology TV show Meet the Ancestors where they excavated a Bronze Age (? IIRC) grave in an English village and reconstructed what the guy in the grave may have looked like. 
 
They then gathered the villagers in the church hall, unveiled the reconstruction and asked if it looked like anyone they knew. They all looked at the reconstruction and began laughing. Then everyone turned to one particular man, who was looking both embarrassed and amazed. 
 
The reconstruction looked so much like him it could have been his twin. 
 
Interestingly, the artist who made the reconstruction was working purely from the excavated bones - she hadn't even visited the village. Yet the resemblance between her reconstruction and this Twenty-first Century inhabitant of the village was uncanny. The man in question said that, as far as he knew, his family had always lived in the village. 
 
So perhaps, in some places at least, we haven't changed much at all. 
Cheers, 
Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius
 

Visit 'Clades Variana' - Home of the Varus Film Project 
Help create the film of Publius Quinctilius Varus' lost legions

08-19-2002, 02:03 AM

Tim, I saw a similar show of a body that was excavated, and DNA samples taken, and they actually found a match from a young girl and her family that was still living in the town. I believe this was in Britain also. I forget how old the bones were, but they were centuries. "Only Trajan could go to Dacia." 
 
Magnus/Matt 
Optio 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"

08-19-2002, 10:14 AM

That's an interesting one! 
Let's see.. 
On my mother's side I am a corsican. Corsica, being an island, has been invaded many times. But the family's name is Alberti. 
That is an originally german name... (Albrecht). 
The family legends on that side has it that we were actually exiled from Italy to Corsica, or fled, during the famous war between the Guelfes and the Guibelins. Apparently some ancestor picked the wrong side. 
So this side of the family could be originally from Italy. 
My father was a Basque mixed (again...) with northern blood since his mother's maiden name was Bouchery. A very common name in northern France. 
I thought first it was because some ancestor had been a butcher. Or that it was a westernization of the arabic name Abou Charif, but in fact it comes from the word "buis" (box wood I think in english). Bouchery then means probably someone living in a forest of box wood, or dealing with that commodity. 
BTW, Bouchery has the same root as the english "bush", (french "buisson") 
That makes me a cousin of George Dubya!! 
So I am a Corsican (Italian?) - German on my mom's side and a Basco - Frank(?) on my dad's side. 
How do I look like? A lot like a Petit Basque, actually. The wiry type. 
Basques come in two sizes: the "Petit Basque" (small Basque) and the "gros Basque" (Big Basque). 
Incidentallty they also have a dominant blood type which is quite rare in the non-Basque population. 
I look very much latin, actually. I suppose that when I grow old enough I'll look like one of those old Basque sheepherders, all tanned leather and bones.

08-19-2002, 05:49 PM

Whoa, that's interesting Antoninus. I wish I could trace my family that far back. I know that SOME the Italian side of my family came to the United States from Naples sometime around the turn of the century. However, some of my Italian relatives also talk about being from NORTHERN Italy. I don't know where. Then there is my German side, which is royally screwed up. Some German, some Dutch, some Russian. I don't look like ANYONE in my family, on either side. My father is OBVIOUSLY Italian-- dark skinned, big nose, short stature. Hahaha, male pattern baldness. Hairy beyond belief. My mother is OBVIOUSLY German/Dutch/Whatever she is-- tall, thin, small nose, almost white blonde hair and blue eyes. I on the other hand, am unlike them all. I'm a little taller than my father, but not tall like my mother. I have DARK BLONDE hair-- whether it's dark blonde or light brown is an ongoing argument-- and blue eyes, but my hair is curly. No one else in my family has curly hair. I dunno, I'm a freak.

08-19-2002, 07:13 PM

I can trace my lineage back to 1092 AD. My ancestor's name was John de Holcombe, and was knighted by King Richard the Lion heart during the crusades. My family history is kept in a rather large book, that is completely up to date, and my grandmother has a copy of it. 
 
Just a note if someone lives in England, I'll try and find both the name of the castle he was granted as a knight, and the abbey where his remains are. I know both survive today, I've seen pictures of them. "Only Trajan could go to Dacia." 
 
Magnus/Matt 
Optio 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"

08-20-2002, 12:51 AM

Both sides of my family are mainly Italian which I already stated. My father's side was originally from Spain where our name was DePaja (hehe yes, it means 'Of Straw'). During the 1300's my family left Spain and travelled to Sicily where they stayed for a while. 'DePaja' became Italianized into 'Paglia' (which means 'straw' in Italian). They stayed there for a while until moving to the mainland where they settled in the region of Puglia until today. 
 
My mother's side, 'DeHoratius', was originally Greek. It might look quite familiar to you guys. A story was passed down through her family that they were the descendents of the legendary Roman hero, Horatius. Whether he really existed is speculative. Perhaps one of my mother's ancestors was nicknamed DeHoratius for some trait they had. Maybe they held off mobs of people with their gas. When my mother's parents came to Ellis Island the name was changed to DeHoratiis.

08-20-2002, 10:29 AM

The British have a great advantage over continental european countries regarding ancestry: the last foreign invasion dates back to 1066 and their last civil war is four centuries old. That explains the ability many of them enjoy to trace their ancestors that far back, thanks to undisturbed church records. 
On the contrary, most of the french people for instance cannot trace back their ancestry further than the french Revolution since most of the church record books were destroyed at that time. Then many more were destroyed during WWII. 
The same can probably be said of the rest of continental Europe which had more than its share of chaos and destruction during the ages. 
That is why I treat that family history of mine as legend. That's exactly what it is. As my granmother once said "It's something my grandmother told me..". It seems it's always been there, but of course there is absolutely no proof of it. 
And what's wrong about male pattern baldness BTW? 
Women think it's sexy. 
Well, some of them do... 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=antoninuslucretius>Antoninus Lucretius</A> at: 8/20/02 12:37:30 pm

Gregg · 08-21-2002, 03:45 AM

In response to the original question: 
 
Though hardly an exhaustive survey, the Museum of London did an exhibit a couple years back called "London Bodies," which analyzed the remains of Londoners through the ages and compared them to modern Londoners. 
 
You can see a quick look here: 
 
www.museum-london.org.uk/...bodies.htm 
 
Gregg

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