Byzantine standing.

[Robert Vermaat]

Tit for tat, love it.<br>
Let's start, then, with you not saying Aetius was a german. No, actually you did not, but you said "In any case, as the West came more and more, and then irreparably, under the control of germanic generalissimos". To which I expressed my bafflement how you could say this, knowing that Aetius for a long time was such a generalissimo. And as Aetius was not a german, either your stement was incorrect, or you included him in your statement. Well, anyway, 'nuff said, I think I've nitpicked this issue long enough.<br>
<br>
About cynicism, you're getting rather more personal (again), now you're even saying I don't know my own history: "you don't recognize the origin of your great tolerance in the modern sense of the word". Frankly Goffredo, that's a load of bull. As you have clearly no idea about the history of early Islam, you have even less knowledge about the history of the Dutch republic. I think the same applies to your ideas about England, which in effect did not differ that much as a trading nation from other European monarchies, but knowing zilch about Venice myself, I'll grant you that one.<br>
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BTW, I'm not usually the one calling others names or going deeper into such discussions, but as your remark was about my country I make an exception and pursue it. When you judge a society as being tolerant because else the'll loose clients and thus money, that's calling that society a cynical one, and this is a very cynical remark at that. I can't judge if you're a cynic yourself.<br>
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Cheers,<br>
Robert<br>
<br>
'Cives Francorum, Miles Romanorum' <p></p><i></i>

[Goffredo]

Well I think this discussion is getting confused. Saladin the Kurd (Diocletian wasn't Roman and not even Italic) didn't show up for another few hundred years and I thought I was clear in saying I was speaking of the initial Arab onslought; i.e. 700-800 AD. I never intended to here discuss what and why the Islamic civilization did what they did in the many centuries after. Cheers<br>
<br>
p.s. By the way I believe Napoleon already alienated more than half of Europe! <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/ugoffredo.showPublicProfile?language=EN>goffredo</A> at: 9/21/02 4:40:10 pm<br></i>

[Goffredo]

Well I said there was no offense. But you got offended. What I said was quite neutral. But now you have really gotten personal!<br>
<br>
I owe you a beer for getting you worked up. I really don't think I said anything offensive and am certainly not implying modern English and Dutch are cynics. I already stated my admiration. What more can I say? What type of beer do you like? I'll even throw in some chips too.<br>
Ciao<br>
<br>
p.s. Venitian history is quite interesting. You might even think them a bunch of opportunistic bastards. They certainly were but they still had the one of the most open cultures in Europe.<br>
<br>
p.p.s. maybe we can get back to talking about late roman history too. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

I propose a tag-team fight; Sander Vand Dorst and Goffedo, against Dan Peterson and Vortigern Studies. It will be a steel cage match, and no holds barred.<br>
<br>
Seriously guys, koudos to you both for keeping it civil. This is a great discussion and I am learning a lot from it about the byzantines and arab nations. By all means, keep it up.<br>
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BTW - some of you may not realize it, but people that don't have the opportunity to go to unniversity and learn about history like this, use RAT as a place of learning. (I know I do...). Just something to keep in mind.<br>
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Thanks again, <p>"Only Trajan could go to Dacia."<BR>
<BR>
Magnus/Matt<BR>
Optio<BR>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" </p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Tiberius pleeeze don't put Dan in to this.. He's got enough on his hands with the tunic wars already.. You know what they say.. Never fight on two fronts at the same time..<br>
And I personnally never finished high school (booooringgg..) and I learned it all by myself. Much more fun!<br>
I learned more english from the Beatles and the Rolling Stones than from all of my english teachers and besides they played darn good music..<br>
Autodidacts rule the world, my friend.<br>
Now to go back to the "barbarization" aspect of the debate, methink that after having gone too far in one direction (The barbarians did it) we're going too far in the other.(after all, nothing much happened, just a few people wandering around..)<br>
Indeed, Stilicho was as Roman as you could be at that time. One of his parents, I don't remember which, was of vandal origin. But accusing him of being "semi-barbarus" was clearly a political accusation, akin in my opinion to accusing for instance former NYC mayor Rudolph Giuliani of being "nothing but a darn italian.."<br>
My apologies to hizzonor. He sure was a great mayor.<br>
However, the simple fact that such an accusation could be made demonstrates that there was indeed a certain amount of hostility to the presence of Germans among the highest ranking officers of the Empire, as well as plain old bigotry.<br>
The same can be said of the Gainas affair. The mere fact that the gothic regiment was involved proves beyond any doubt that they were so much romanized that they participated in the assorted and numerous plots and conspiracies which were as we know one of the Romans and Byzantines' national pastimes.<br>
Conversely, the emperors of old hired german mercs precisely because they didn't even speak the language, didn't have any connections, couldn't care less about roman politics and thus couldn't get involved, like f'rinstance the Praetorians...<br>
Well those Goths did get involved and if I remember well they were crushed by other Goths, for at that time, there were many Goths in the Roman army..<br>
There were Goths in the Roman army since Theodosius had decided to enlist them to replace the soldiers these very Goths had slaughtered wholesale a few years earlier at Adrianople.. Sad but necessary move..<br>
And of course people being generally bigots, I am sure that numerous voices in Constantinople were heard saying: "See what I told you? You can't trust them darn foreigners..."<br>
It is to be noted, and has been by some historians, that on the whole, the german high ranking officers were rather less conspiracy-prone that those of "roman" origin...<br>
And that does not surprise me a bit.. <br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

in reference to your statement that Dicoletian was not Roman not even Italic. Of course Diocletian WAS Roman. As much as Trajan was Roman rather than Hispanic or Septimius Severus was Roman rather than African. By his time the term Roman was of course a legal distinction rather than an ethnic group as i 'm sure you know. Though he was distinguished by history as one of the Illyrian soldier emperors it is doubtful that he would have ever considered himself anything but Roman. <p></p><i></i>