Login

Gregg · 09-18-2002, 03:22 AM

I've read some discussions on wasp-waisted blades, like the Mainz and Fulham blades. Some feel the waisted design was deliberate, and some feel that it was a result of shapening the blade. 
 
I have to wonder about that. If it really was the result of sharpening, then why are there no spatha blades with similar waisting? Or Pompeii pattern blades with waisting? Or for that matter, why are there no medieval swords with waisting? 
 
Gregg

09-18-2002, 01:34 PM

That's a good question, since waiting the blade tends to put more of the weight of the blade near the tip, increasing the power of a chopping strike. Seems that it might have been intentionally designed. Roman bladesmiths wouldn't have been the first to design weapons taking advantage of the physics.

Matthew Amt · 09-19-2002, 12:24 AM

Avete! 
I think the whole theory of these swords being shaped by sharpening is bunk. Why are no unwaisted--i.e., "unsharpened"--Mainz swords found? If they were sharpened so much, why are they still so broad? Why did all legionaries apparently sharpen their swords wrong, and all in the same way? Why didn't they sharpen the part that one would think would get the most use? 
 
And then why, in the first century, did all soldiers suddenly start sharpening their swords in a different way, creating the Pompeii style? Did it really take them all several hundred years to learn to sharpen in a straight line? 
 
A few problems with the theory, you see... Different swords are the shape they are, generally speaking, because that's the way they were made. I'm sure quite a few got at least a little narrower over time, but I'm not sure how much evidence there might be for that, either. 
 
Valete, 
Matthew/Quintus, Legio XX

09-19-2002, 12:31 AM

Salve Matthew and Gregg! 
 
Matthew, your point was one I was considering when I was writing my re-post, just didn't include it. I would like to think that your average Legion Joe would know how to sharpen the straight edge of his sword to keep the edge straight and uniformly shart from the guard all the way up. It doesn't make sense that they would concentrate at the waist of the blade and wear off that much metal leaving the edges near the point dull. 
 
Regarde

09-19-2002, 04:10 AM

Some think the Gladius evolved from a longer, waisted Iberian sword, though I have read from some sources that this is inaccurate. However, considering that the Gladius as we know it didn't come into widespread use until after Cornelius Scipio's conquest of most of Iberia in the Punic War, and the similarity between the blades, I personally think the Gladius is an evolution of the Spanish design. 
 
The waisted blade has several atvantages over the straight edge. Firstly, even though the Gladius was always intended first as a stabbing weapon, the waisting of a gladius would make it slightly better at cutting. Secondly, the wideness of the blade allows a rather narrow tip to be supported, making it an ideal armor piercing weapon. 
 
As it has been mentioned, by waisting the blade, the tip is made a bit heavier than it would be, and there are benefits to that. Also, esthetics might be considered. 
 
The gladius evolved into a straight edged, short tipped weapon that lost some of its original charm and atvantages, but was still quite effective. The pompeii type gladii would have been easier to make and slightly easier to maintain. Army logistics is always going to support a change like that.

Matthew Amt · 09-19-2002, 01:17 PM

Avete! 
The gladius hispaniensis in its earliest form was often waisted, but it was copied from a Spanish sword (in turn adopted from a Gallic type) which apparently was not. It looks like the Romans added the waisting, presumably because they were used to leaf-shaped blades. Polybius states clearly that the Romans adopted the Spanish sword, and archeology is now bearing this out. Remember, this is NOT the Mainz style, but a longer and slimmer blade. 
 
While it does appear that a leaf-shaped or waisted blade has certain physical advantages in certain circumstances, my personal feeling is that most of the shape was dictated by fashion. I do not think that points were ever designed to be "armor piercing", simply because I don't think that soldiers would bother to try to stab through an opponent's armor. And most of Rome's opponents wore no armor anyway. 
 
The change to the Pompeii style might simply have been a shift in fashion. If it was a function thing, it might simply have been because soldiers prefered a slightly smaller and lighter sword. I don't think we can put too much emphasis on ease of production: soldiers are still paying for their own gear (payroll deductions if nothing else); and with a stable number of legions there are no great demands for huge amounts of gear, just enough for equipping new recruits and replacements. It was back when the Mainz and hispaniensis were in use that large armies were being hastily raised and equipped for conquests and civil wars. In any case, I hesitate to go into theories on WHY something happened unless there is literary evidence that shows what the Romans were thinking. 
 
Valete, 
Matthew/Quintus, Legio XX

09-21-2002, 06:28 PM

Matt. 
 
I have to agree with you that the Hispaniensis and Mainz were waisted intentionally and not through sharpening. The Hispaniensis, the Mainz, and the earlier leaf blades are of the finest blade form ever created. They are all things to all men. That is, the long point facilitates a good thrust. The waist creates a broad blade at the CoP where a cut is to be delivered, thus giving the blade excellent chopping ability. Furthermore, the gentle curve of the waist also allows for a draw cut, or slash, to be made with the back hand. No other blade form, to my knowledge, facilitates all of these actions in a single weapon so effectively. I reckon that's why the Romans favoured it so much in the earler period, though I don't here any arguments over whether they favoured the cut, thrust or slash! 
 
 
Jonathan 
 
P.S. I'm going to get my Mark Morrow hispaniensis within the next couple of weeks when I head South into the US. I asked him to basically reproduce yours and I hope that you don't mind. The hilt is going to be a different matter though and I am still thinking on that one.

Matthew Amt · 09-22-2002, 01:30 PM

Jonathan Fletcher writes: "P.S. I'm going to get my Mark Morrow hispaniensis within the next couple of weeks when I head South into the US. I asked him to basically reproduce yours and I hope that you don't mind. The hilt is going to be a different matter though and I am still thinking on that one." 
 
Yeah, I seem to have started a real fad! I certainly don't mind, as long as they aren't as nice as mine, hee hee! Now all you'll need is a nice Montefortino helmet, pectoral or riveted hamata, greaves, tall oval scutum... 
 
Enjoy! 
Matthew/Quintus

Login
Username:
Password:	Lost Password?
	Remember me