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**Robert Vermaat** · 10-29-2002, 01:09 PM

Conal, 
I'll dig up the quote for you. 
Dutch, indeed, is a German language, but there was a Celtic language spoken before that. I meant no common ancestry, only that the German/Celtic split was not as neat as was for a long time thought it was. Caesar did not ask the locals, but if he had I doubt the locals could have given him a satisfying answer, because 'Celtic' and 'German' were not names which the popultion use for themselves. Ceasar did not need to know where the devides were, he created the devide himself. 
 
Cheers, 
Robert 
 
'Cives Francorum, Miles Romanorum' 
www.fectio.org.uk/

10-29-2002, 02:25 PM

Thanks Robert, 
 
From what I have read the Celts & presumable the "Germans" were tribal/clanish so the concept of a Germania would not make sense to them. 
 
I have a feeling that territory was a fluid thing for them both as "kingship" was a matter of a limited time on top more like a presidential democracy. Wealth was in possession of cattle not corn. 
 
It is likely that there was a merging at the edges in both culture & language .... the Celts weren't slow in adapting to the toga !! 
 
Regards 
 
 
Conal

10-29-2002, 04:02 PM

...was due to his classic use of deception. It was a military victory that Sun Tzu would have been proud of. Many of the great military leaders of the past were experts in deception, Hannibal, Rommel, Zhukov. One side's deception is always liable to be considered by the other to be treachery but the perspective of history should put it in its proper view. The competency of you enemy is also not one of choice. They were who they were. Does it matter that Darius III's incompetence as a general was mainly responsible for making Alexander 'Great?' No, it should not detract from a great military accomplishment. Would the outcome have been different if someone other than Varus faced Arminius or someone besides Darius III faced Alexander? Undoubtedly the outcome would have been different but the fact is Arminius did face Varus and defeated him completely and decisively. Using principals of war that any modern leader or student of Sun Tzu would have used, Arminius kept his friends close and kept his enemy closer, right up to the time he sprang his trap. Treacherous from the Roman's point of view but not the Germans nor should it be from even handed history.

Goffredo · 10-29-2002, 06:10 PM

On Tim's CLADES VARIANA forum I too have argued that the lack of a "german" memory means something. Are there not many examples of storys surviving orally millenia only on the basis of the inspiration they continue regenerate everytime they are told. They called legends. 
 
The argument goes that the Cherusci didn't survive so why should one expect the oral memory of Arminius to survive. But I do think it is interesting that the great feat of Arminius and the brave Cherusci was not percieved by "nearby" peoples to be worthy of memory or imitation. Evidently the many "german" tribes (peoples) percieved more differences among themselves than similarities. 
 
I acknowledge that maybe I am reacting as a modern man imbued with a somewhat romantic notion of greatness. But what is the real social purpose of legends? I think they help reaffirm the ties of a people to their ancestors, land and ways. If there is no people to speak of and no culture to tie down, then it is unlikely that a story will become a legend. But the reverse is also somewhat true: if there are no storys and legends to tell then a culture will easily die out. 
 
Of course I am just thinking. 
Ciao

10-29-2002, 08:03 PM

Dan(.........!)

Thiudareiks Flavius · 10-29-2002, 08:07 PM

Goffredo wrote: 
 
On Tim's CLADES VARIANA forum I too have argued that the lack of a "german" memory means something. Are there not many examples of storys surviving orally millenia only on the basis of the inspiration they continue regenerate everytime they are told. They called legends. 
 
 
And as I've pointed out, we have NO west Germanic legends at all prior to about the Fifth Century and nothing in any detail recorded until the Tenth. Even then we only have fragments and vague references. For all we know the stroy of Arminius survived for 1000 years or more - we just don't have any record of it. This is not a function of the significance of the story, it's a function of the absolute and near complete scarcity of any legendary material from this area. 
 
 
The argument goes that the Cherusci didn't survive so why should one expect the oral memory of Arminius to survive. But I do think it is interesting that the great feat of Arminius and the brave Cherusci was not percieved by "nearby" peoples to be worthy of memory or imitation. Evidently the many "german" tribes (peoples) percieved more differences among themselves than similarities. 
 
 
The fact that the Cherusci were absorbed by later confederations may be a factor in the story's survival. But we already know that the story survived amongst other Germanic peoples over 100 years later - Tacitus tells us as much. The question is how long it survived. Given the nature of the evidence, we simply can't know the answer, but the idea that this means the story wasn't significant is a very weak argument given the nature of the evidence. 
 
 
I acknowledge that maybe I am reacting as a modern man imbued with a somewhat romantic notion of greatness. But what is the real social purpose of legends? I think they help reaffirm the ties of a people to their ancestors, land and ways. If there is no people to speak of and no culture to tie down, then it is unlikely that a story will become a legend. 
 
 
There are thousands of stories and legends from this period and this area which haven't survived to be written down - none of them. That's why the story of Arminius didn't survive, because nothing did. To single out the non-survival of the Arminius legend, which we know from Tacitus did become a legend, and claim this is significant is a weak argument given that NO Germanic legends from this period survived at all. 
Cheers, Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius 
 
Visit 'Clades Variana' - Home of the Varus Film Project 
 
Help create the film of Publius Quinctilius Varus' lost legions

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