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Daniel S Peterson · 02-16-2004, 07:09 PM

I noticed on Greek Army Talk several comments by supposed Roman patriots lauding the LOTR abomination, and similar talk has been posted here as well. However impressive as the special effects were, supporting nonsense fantasy films only means they will probably take the place of real history films. How can real war elephants compete with ones that are fifty feet tall, etc. etc. 
 
Tolkien was a rampant Germanophile who was involved with a clique of like-minded Anglo-Saxons who strived to have all latin words removed from the English language. (Just like the Nazis attempted). The great motivation for his silly nonsense seems to have been a hair-brained attempt to turn the cultured Mediterranean world into the real barbarians (the 'evil' and swarthy southern people of his books), and makes the heroes of his stories racially pure Northern Europeans (who, no surprise happen to speak Anglo-Saxon dialect) with great cities of marble thousands of years ago, when they were little more than cavemen. In reality we know, that for a 1000 years these people could scarcely understand the concept of building more than a firepit of stone, and instead built hovels of twigs, timber, mud and dung, none of which survived a generation or two, not to mention virtually total illiteracy, virtually no metal objects made by themselves, and pottery so crude it could have been made in kindergarten classes. They believed in Elves because they saw Celtic, and later, Roman trade goods they knew could not be made by human hands, and had to be made by a greater race than they. (That much they got right). 
 
It is a good thing that his great goal was not achieved in his lifetime, that of making his ridiculous fairy tales the "National Myth of the English People". If anything, the true National Myth of Britain might rightfully be that of King Arthur, who is fondly remembered for his struggle to save Romano-British, Western civilisation from the invading, barbaric Anglo-Saxon hordes Tolkien idolized. The besieging, plundering orcs in these stories could easily be the Germannic hordes that overran Western civilizaton and set world progress back a millenium. Too bad Rome didn't possess the 'magic' to have the earth upen up and swallow their 'orc's like those in the film. 
 
It is fortunate the vast majority of people who are enthralled by this nonsense have no concept it is an attempt to revise European history with its role reversal of civilization and barbarism. For all they know, 'Middle Earth' could be on another planet, in a galaxy far, far away. Let's keep it there. 
 
Dan

02-16-2004, 09:43 PM

"a rampant Germanophile who was involved with a clique of like-minded Anglo-Saxons who strived [sic] to have all Latin words removed from the English language" 
 
"It is a good thing that his great goal was not achieved in his lifetime, that of making his ridiculous fairy tales the 'National Myth of the English People'." 
 
Please could you supply evidence for these strong assertions? I've never heard them before. As far as I knew Tolkien was just an old-fashioned Oxford don who drank in my favourite pub long before I was there (The Eagle and Child) and wrote a few enjoyable and harmless books (harmless, that is, unless you throw them at someone; my single-volume copy of TLOTR could do someone significant damage). 
 
Shaun

Frank Miranda · 02-17-2004, 05:03 AM

...I thought the rohirrim were pretty cool.....

Daniel S Peterson · 02-17-2004, 07:12 AM

Yep Shaun, 
Those mild-mannered, university professors in their tweed jackets and spectacles are often not what we imagine. Just look at the mythical Professor I. Jones. In his university surroundings he seems the respectable archaeologist, but when he dons his fedora and takes up the bullwhip, he is transformed into the world's most notorious site looter, utterly destroying ancient tombs and temples wherever he goes.... 
 
But truth is sometimes stranger than fiction, and once the mild mannered Oxford professor has swilled too many pints (you know where), and donned his horned teutonic helmet he's concocting stories calculated to change our perceptons of real history to give a better light to his civilization-destroying ancestors. 
 
Yes, it's true, but I have loaned this file, but should have it back tomorrow. But these things are no secret, this is why he is so admired in some circles. 
 
Yes Frank, they were cool. That's the problem. It is a lot easier to make 'fantasy' much cooler than real history. And in this day when the average person learns everything about history from motion pictures, that is why this nonsense, (however cool and I must admit I thought it was too, except for a few totally asinine things), is so dangerous. 
 
Dan

**Robert Vermaat** · 02-17-2004, 01:31 PM

I thought so as well! No staying power, that Orc infantry..

**Robert Vermaat** · 02-17-2004, 01:40 PM

Dan, 
 
Are you just jealous of the current movies' success? or what is it. Tolkien was no Quote:<hr>rampant Germanophile <hr>, his love for northern mythology was just part of his love for English culture. 
That nasty little comparison with the nazis Quote:<hr>(Just like the Nazis attempted)<hr> is way out of line. Modern nazis may want to read LOTR, but that's about as far as the connection goes - as much as the swastika is a nazi symbol in origin! 
 
Tolkien was a man of his age, and his thinking reflected that. Just as Julius Caesar was not a Mussolini or a Hitler even though he slaughtered thousands of people, Tolkien was not a nazi by any standards. Kindly go look for these modern nazis in your own country, they are very recognisable from the white cap on their idiotic heads. 
 
Robert

02-17-2004, 03:02 PM

Quote:<hr>If anything, the true National Myth of Britain might rightfully be that of King Arthur, who is fondly remembered for his struggle to save Romano-British, Western civilisation from the invading, barbaric Anglo-Saxon hordes <hr> 
 
Dan send me an email. I'm working on a script of the arthurian era and am currently reading up on my 2nd & 3rd books. I am more and more convinced his realm was not the whole of britain but of wales. 
 
Valete, 
 
Owain

rekirts · 02-17-2004, 03:49 PM

'Owain' am I right in thinking you are reading, or have read King Arthur, The True Story by Graham Phillips and Martin Keatman? Interesting read. 
 
Wendy 
 
P.S. Oh, and just to stay in topic--it's too bad we ignorant masses are too stupid to tell the difference between history and fantasy. I know I can't. I thought LOTR was all true!!! "I am an admirer of the ancients,but not like some people so as to despise the talent of our own times." Pliny the Younger

02-17-2004, 04:33 PM

Wendy, I did read that and am reading two other books. 
 
The Holy Kingdom by Adrian Gilbert. I'm seeing if there is anything usefull in here. It has some things wrong about some of it's pictures and states in the beginning of the book that since a King Arthwys is listed in the LLandaf charters he Must be King Arthur. A rather brazen if not ridiculous claim. 
 
 
The other one I am reading is Pendragon and it's at home so I don't remember the authors but the also did keys to avalon. 
 
Valete, 
Owain

Daniel S Peterson · 02-17-2004, 06:26 PM

Robert, 
I didn't say Tolkien was a Nazi. I know Tolkien hated the Nazis (probably the Romano-British side of the family showing through, his father was a native German from Saxony), but this doesn't change the fact he despised latin culture so much that he wanted to remove all latin from the Anglo Saxon language. It is an undeniable fact the 'Nordic North' is the civilized world in his fairy tales, and anyone South and East of there are the barbarians. He simply couldn't face the fact that his master race (and remember the Anglo Saxon British had much of the "Third World" under their heel in his day, were little more than cavemen when the mediterranean world had an advanced civiliazation. For hundreds of years the barbarian north changed almost nil, mud huts, endless intertribal feuds and boozing (just like Tolkien's favorite piece of literature, Beowulf confirms). True civilization did not come to these people until it was looted from the classical world. Tolkien could not bear this, and devoted his life to creating his myth that was just the opposite of history. 
 
Many fantasy stories are just 'fun'. This one however has a sinister agenda. Had he lived to read it, old Adolf would have loved LOTR. 
 
Dan

Thiudareiks Flavius · 02-17-2004, 09:58 PM

If Dan's hilarious post wasn't an obvious piece of deliberate trollery (oops, "troll" is a Germanic word! Run for the hills! Nazis!) I'd vote for it as "Silliest Post of the Year So Far". But since barely a word of it is true, and that is the essence of its humour, I'll vote for it as "Funniest Silly Post of the Year So Far". 
 
Since Numenor and Gondor were inspired by Egypt and Rome/Byzantium, Tolkien's languages were based on Latin, Welsh and Finnish, many of his key heroes were non-Nordic, Germanic culture was well above caveman level and they produced some of the finest metalwork of the period (ask the modern Japanese swordsmiths who were astounded at the Alemannic blades they analysed recently), it's pretty clear that Dan's post was meant purely as humour. 
 
Nice work Dan - thanks for the laugh. Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius 
 
Visit 'Clades Variana' - Home of the Varus Film Project 
 
Help create the film of Publius Quinctilius Varus' lost legions. 
 
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02-18-2004, 12:05 AM

Wow. 
 
I sincerely hope this is just a joke, heh, cause this is an example of conspiracy theory going ten steps too far.

**Robert Vermaat** · 02-18-2004, 01:00 AM

Dan, 
 
Tim already answered most of this. Of course Tolkien was aware of real history and archaeology! He was a professor at Oxford, for cryin' out loud! Give the man some credit. 
Sinister agenda? He started out with a children's story which got out of hand a bit, that's all. All the northern bias came mostly from his own field, being the English language and culture. Like Tim said, Rome echoes very strongly through his work, and most of the time not at all bad! 
 
I bet you are just jealous of him, writing about dragons.. Or is it because he makes all dragons bad? 
 
Trollery indeed - cavemen at the time of the mediterranean cultures? Stonehenge was, after all, merely a bunch of silly stones, randomly erected by cavemen with nothing better to do.. 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 2/18/04 2:01 am

Goffredo · 02-18-2004, 01:39 PM

I fear another fight is about to start and the eventual intervention of Jenny. Lets try to discuss this interesting topic without loosing control. 
 
I mildly agree with Dan and sense others overreacted to his very direct ways. 
I am not a Tolkien expert having read only the Hobbit and the first of the trilogy. But I always did think Tolkien is just another expression of the celtic-germanic mania that took possession of all sorts of intellectuals of european countries during the 19th and first half of the 20th centuries. In some countries and in most situations this fashion led to harmless and even interesting forms of behaviour (celtic costume parties and picnics, well funded and led archelogical expeditions, Tolkien, and more recently Asterix, Conan movies and excellent re-enactors just as serious as the roman ones on this forum). Unfortunately in other cases it was at the base of the rhethoric of tragically unpleasant developments. 
 
In Italy roman army stuff was considered until recently a fascist hobby! In the twenties and thirties it was a legitimate suspicion, don't you think? Germanic stuff in the late 19th century was part of nation building rhethoric of Germany and the Celtic version was important even in France (Napolean III excavations of Alesia). 
 
Militaristic nation building was the main activity of european nations in the 19th century and this gusto led to the WW1. It continued into the 20s and 30s (Hitler and Mussolini). In England there was some admiration of Fascist rhethoric and even in the US some admired Hitler until the beast completely revealed himself. Why the admiration? WW1 was not resolved properly as nations were still angry with one-another, and on the other hand there was the unleashing in Russia of an ideaology that wanted to level all nationalisms. Free ecomomy based democracy was going thru a bad moment, and it was not perceived as a serious alternative by many intelligent people, in England too! Where to stand: to the communist left or to the nationalistic right? Thank god the third alternative did survive the showdown between the first two. 
 
Where Tolkien himself stood on these issues is something that I would like to ask a Tolkien biographer! I cannot base myself on the high fraction of outraged of Frodo enthusiasts. It would not be very scientific. Indeed it would not be the first nor the last time a great artist, creator of lasting works of art, would, in private, be a jerk. 
 
------------------------------------------ 
Hi TIM. 
 
Regards MORE-than-caveman germanic culture, I am sure that is true but I am still quite ingorant and hence somewhat traditional and hence roman-centric. Regards Alemannic metal working I am certainly interested; am interested also to know how much was due to roman influence. I think the roman world irradiated much northward. Lets agree that much flowed across the Limes both ways so it is difficult to study Germanic and Alemannic cultures and technological inventions as if they were isolated. 
 
Am I wrong to suspect that the Gothic capabilities came from contacts with peoples that were descendents of the Scythians. After I saw a magnificent exhibition of their metal work many years ago, I am no longer suprised to hear that the goths brought much to the roman world. But again how much of the armament - metal work application in tough times - of the goths was influenced by Rome. After all the Goths fought against Rome for some time so they were not isolated from her influence either. 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=goffredo>goffredo</A> at: 2/18/04 2:54 pm

Daniel S Peterson · 02-18-2004, 07:03 PM

Well said, Goffredo, and yes, some people take these things too seriously. It should be remembered as well, that these ancient Germannic peoples are not the Germans of today. I am entirely of German and Norwegian stock myself, though I do not write (or believe in) fairy tales that suggest these illiterate, savage and backward peoples (in ancient times that is), were the creators of a magnificent civilization as Tolkien would have us believe. Had it not been for Roman cultural influences, (or others that may have occured later), the wild northmen would be unchanged even today, much as the stoneage cultures of the Western Hemisphere. It is not that they are stupid or racially inferior, it is a matter of thier culture. 
 
If you take a few moments and go to some of the Tolkien bios on the internet you will find everything I said (except the maybe the bit about his teutonic horned helmet )can be substantiated. Many writers are far less generous than me. 
 
Robert, what does Stonehenge have to do with the Germans? As I said, there is little archaeological evidence of them making anything more sophisticated than a fire pit out of stone. What great monuments of ancient German ingenuity exists today? Until they captured slaves from the civilized world to make their things, whether pottery or wood 'sculptures', it all looks like it was made in Kindergarten. In fact, I insult the advanced Neolithic peoples of Southern Europe by favorably comparing even lst Century AD German artistic skill with these real 'cavemen'. But don't take my word for it, go to any museum with pre 2nd century AD German artifacts and compare them with the sometimes very elegant artifacts of the Southern European stone age. Amazing, but true, you will see that I am right. For the last 20 years that I have lived in Germany, I have visited virtually every museum I could searching in vain for the great works made by my beloved ancient German ancestors.... and there weren't any. Virtually all of the 'cool German stuff' (and I like it too), came about after the great migrations, when skilled 'Roman' artisans could be kidnapped. Why else is there nothing before these times except for captured Roman or Celtic goods found in the graves of Germans? There is an excellent book by the Archaeologist P.V. Blob, The Bog People: Iron-Age man Preserved. Based on the Archaeological evidence, he is in full accordance with Tacitus and the other ancient historians on how incredibly primitive the Germans were. But it is nothing to fight about, their culture made them that way, almost identical in nature to certain Native American and African tribes. Once finally exposed to civilization however, the Germans were far quicker to embrace it than many other primitive,tribal peoples. We modern germannic peoples can be proud of that. 
 
But back to Stonehenge, and other megalithic structures of the Bronze Age, these were certainly not made by Germans. They were made by a bronze age people largely wiped out by the invading Celts and Germans. They seem to have been smaller and stature and are probably the people referrred to in Germannic myth as 'Dwarves'. In fact it was mighty structures made by them, and later ones made by the Mediterranean peoples, that convinced the Germans there must be 'Giants' in the world to make these things for no human (in their estimation), could possibly do it. 
 
Tim, the beautiful pattern-welded swords you admire may have all been made in Roman workshops. Certainly many, (including mine), has a Roman maker's stamp. This is not to say they couldn't enslave Roman swordsmiths and have them make swords for them, and maybe some eventually learned to do this themselves, but the culture dictated that 'real men' only fought, made sex and boozed. Who can complain about that kind of lifestyle? Look at the Vendel-culture helmets imitated in LOTR, and worn by the Anglo-Saxon speaking riders of Rohan, they are all Roman ridge helmets, as is the one from Sutton Hoo. What did any of these Germannic people have before they stole and traded from the civilized world? Archaeology tell us, as did the very reliable historian Tacitus: "a fur skin pinned together by a thorn, and javelins that usually had only fire-hardened wood points." Oh, and the 'national weapon' of course, a wooden club, curiously identical (as seen still carried by the Germannic auxillaries on Trajan's Column), to the type wielded by the 'Cavemen' of popular culture. 
 
What can I say? Sometimes the truth hurts. But rather than invent fairy tales proclaiming these people had an advanced civilization, embrace them for their wonderfully primitive savagery, versus the technical superiority of the Romans, just as we do the stone age Sioux, and iron age Zulus, who overcame in certain battles the 19th century Americans and British. (Of course in all of these cases, it was innumerable, outnumbering hordes that led to the successes of the primitives), but in the case of the Germans, there are greater fantasy writers than Tolkien who purport the fairy tale that the numbers were somehow evenly matched, or that the Germans could have even been outnumbered, chief among them being the noted proto-Nazi and pseudo-historian, Hans Delbruck. It is even said that someone from Australia wants to make the story of the Teuotoburger Wald, (apparently based much on Delbruck's fantasy retelling), into another great movie epic, just like Lord of the Rings! 
 
All in fun, 
Dan 
 
 
PS, But Tim, don't forget to have dragons in your fantasy film, even 'Fat-Boy' added dragons to his LOTR to make it more interesting, for after all, Tolkien's real Nazgul beasts as he described them were just a big smelly, naked skinned birds with beaks, nothing like the armored, dragonesque creatures in the movie(which is probably why the Nordic Bimbo cut of its' head so easily in the original story. She must have had a light saber in the movie.) 
 
 
 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielspeterson>Daniel S Peterson</A> at: 2/18/04 11:08 pm

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