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something i\'ve never heard about
#1
Last night, in TV, I've seen a archaeologist (maybe French or French-Canadian) saying:<br>
<br>
"...in the Colosseum sometimes they display slaves (women) forced to have sex with bulls and donkeys until they died..."<br>
<br>
Argh! Five years in classic studies thrown away!<br>
<br>
But it was not all:<br>
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"...in other occasions they forced men (!) to have sex with (male) donkeys!"<br>
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Oh oh...<br>
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And at the end...<br>
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"It seems Romans planned to parade Cleopatra nude and in Iron chains in the streets of Rome in triumph, then kill her in the colosseum."<br>
<br>
The last is the one i remember something about, but i'm not really sure.<br>
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Question: WAS SHE (THE ARCHAEOLOGIST) FOOL?<br>
<br>
OR NOT?<br>
<br>
DID YOU KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THIS SUBJECT?<br>
<br>
Valete<br>
<br>
Germanicus <p></p><i></i>
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#2
Ave,<br>
<br>
In recent years there have been published several good books about gladiatorgames etc. Your TV person wasn't a fool. According to Roman ancient sources, mentioned in full in those books, there were executions in the afternoon. Sometimes the execution took the form of a mythic re-enactmant. Jupiter, in the form of a bull, having sex with the maiden Europa. Apperantly condemned female-prisoners had " the honour" to play the part of Europa. These women were no slaves as such, but, being condemned, had the same low status. Or even lower.<br>
<br>
Vale<br>
<br>
Gaius Civilis <p></p><i></i>
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#3
Hi,<br>
<br>
However, it would seem foolish to say that Cleopatra was to be paraded in the Colosseum! What is more these ideas seem to have arisen as a misunderstanding of Beastiarius and it is foolish to consider a 'mythic reenactment' as 'death by sex with wild animals' as this misunderstands the context totally. And, as far as I can discover there are no sources which describe death by sex with wild animals other than these 'mythic re-enactments'. So there are no references to men being forced to have sex with animals or women other than the Jupiter references. As you point out, Gaivs, these were not slaves. All in all I think that this kind of misinformation indeed sets us back years because there is no evidence for it.<br>
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Cheers<br>
<br>
Muzzaguchi <p>It is an unscrupulous intellect that does not pay Antiquity its due reverence - Erasmus of Rotterdam<br>
<br>
'Modern history, like a deaf man, answers questions no one asks' - Tolstoy War and Peace Ep. ii.1</p><i></i>
Murray K Dahm

Moderator

\'\'\'\'No matter how many you kill, you cannot kill your successor\'\'\'\' - Seneca to Nero - Dio 62

\'\'\'\'There is no way of correcting wrongdoing in those who think that the height of virtue consists in the execution of their will\'\'\'\' - Ammianus Marcellinus 27.7.9
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#4
Asked about the same question a friend of mine, archaeology student, said so:<br>
<br>
<br>
1) The sex-with-beasts show in the Colosseum was a reality but, in his opionion, had no symbolic meaning: it was something like snuff-movies in our era. In the era of gladiators, it sounds me possible. But he did'nt remember where he read this.<br>
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2) Sex-with-beasts show with male prisoners is something he had never heard of. But he said some older cultures maybe did it.<br>
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3) Cleopatra and triumph: he confirmed the first parte, the intention to parade her nude & in iron chains, but not the Colosseum story. He said an interesting thing: romans sometimes paraded nude and chained any prisoner, female and male, but without the kind of sadistic-pleasure which could be possible in our times: it was only to mean submission and they made no differences between men and women.<br>
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What do you think about it?<br>
<br>
Germanicus <p></p><i></i>
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#5
Ave Julius! glad to have you on RCT. It would be good to find out the sources of these comments. I would think it would have been mentioned somewhere and known before this last history show. <p>Legio XX<br>
Caupona Asellinae</p><i></i>
Richard Campbell
Legio XX - Alexandria, Virginia
RAT member #6?
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#6
...but i have no ideas! It was an italian television interwiew. Normally it is a serious program.<br>
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I', personally, had had never heard of this. Only the part regarding cleopatra, but don't remenber who wrote it. Maybe it was a century or more later!<br>
<br>
Germanicus <p></p><i></i>
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#7
She couldn't have been paraded in the Colloseum (Flavian Ampitheatre) as it wasn't started until approx AD 70, by the Emperor Vespasian, as a public building on part of the site of Nero's Golden Palace. I believe it was inaugurated by his son Titus in his short reign (79 - 82). <p></p><i></i>
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#8
It was my mistake: i was distracted so i wrote colosseum instead circus. But i don't remember of kings princesses and so on paraded and killed (ad bestias..ecc ecc) like slaves and gladiators.<br>
My question is this: what romans do to the royal families of the people they submitted? Did they kill everyone? Or did they enslaved someone of them?<br>
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Germanicus <p></p><i></i>
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#9
The sex-with-animals stuff appears in Daniel P. Mannix's book "Those About to Die," which was published in the 50s. Mannix was a veteran writer for the men's adventure magazines of the day, not a historian, and the book was lurid even considering the subject. I don't know of any period references to back up the story and he may have been playing a riff on the infamous, popular and possibly apocryphal college-boy legend of the Tijuana donkey show. It's certainly something a Roman audience might have enjoyed, but most animals have little interest in mating with anything but their own species, though dogs are nototiously undiscriminating. <p></p><i></i>
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#10
Ave GMoran! welcome to RCT.<br>
<br>
I can't make any comment on the sex with animals stuff, but Romans did hold royal folk as hostages of good behaviour for their families in the subject countries. It probably depended upon whether the royals resisted Rome or not. British royals that were loyal were supported as tribal chiefs; royals like Boudicca were killed. It was cheaper for Roman administration to keep locals around in one role or another. <p>Legio XX<br>
Caupona Asellinae</p><i></i>
Richard Campbell
Legio XX - Alexandria, Virginia
RAT member #6?
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