Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
The Augustan Army ; the continuation of the manipel organization
#1
Statius Silvae 5

praeterea, fidos dominus si dividat enses,
pandere quis centum valeat frenare, maniplos          95
inter missus eques, quis praecepisse cohorti,
quem deceat clari praestantior ordo tribuni,
quisnam frenigerae signum dare dignior alae;

Moreover, should the Master distribute loyal swords, to make known who suffices to control a century, a knight sent among the companies of foot, who to command a cohort, whom the more excellent rank of illustriuous tribune befits, who is suited rather to give orders to a cavalry troop.
(Statius in Two Volumes I ; J.H.Mozley M.A. Loeb Library)

*
So cohorts organized by manipels in emperor Domitian’s timeframe.

*

Anonymus, Carmina Priapea, XLVI; 1 (opus c.100AD)

                O non candidior puella Mauro, sed morbosior omnibus cinaedis, pygmaeo brevior gruem timenti, ursis asperior pilosiorque, Medis laxior Indicisve bracis: manes hinc, licet ut liberet, ires; nam quamvis videar satis paratus, erucarum opus est decem maniplis, fossas inguinis ut teram dolemque cunni vermiculos scaturrientis.

*

10 manipels (digging?). Another example of the manipel organization.
Reply
#2
(10-18-2017, 01:20 PM)Julian de Vries Wrote: cohorts organized by manipels in emperor Domitian’s timeframe.

This is a reference to the equestrian cursus - Statius refers first to the emperor appointing an equestrian officer to a legion centurionate, then to an auxiliary cohort prefecture, then a legion tribunate, then a cavalry prefecture.

The reference to maniples relates to the legions, although the cohorts are auxiliary.

I would suggest that poetry of whatever era, and even classicising literary history, is not the best evidence for contemporary military organisation. Writers of the 1st century AD did use 'maniples' as a synonym for the legions (which probably still maintained the old manipular system, for organisational purposes) or for soldiers generally, but so did Ammianus, Claudian and the panegyricist Pacatus.


(10-18-2017, 01:20 PM)Julian de Vries Wrote: 10 manipels (digging?). Another example of the manipel organization.

Not in this case. erucarum... decem maniplis refers to 'ten handfuls of rocket' (the plant).

The poem is pretty smutty, as the name of the collection might suggest! In a decorous old translation, the last lines are: "For, though I may seem fully equipped, 'twould be the work of ten handfuls of rocket to [induce me to] scrub through the ditches 'twixt thy thighs, and bethwack the worms swarming in thy coynte!"

Rocket was apparently considered an aphrodisiac, or cure for impotence: the poet is saying he would need to eat ten handfuls of it to be 'fully equipped' [Image: shocked.png]
Nathan Ross
Reply
#3
Nathan Ross:The reference to maniples relates to the legions, although the cohorts are auxiliary.

So centuries, maniples and cohorts indeed.

*

Nathan Ross:Not in this case. erucarum... decem maniplis refers to 'ten handfuls of rocket' (the plant).

How flowery!

*

Fronto to Lucius Verus:

I subjoin Cato’s very words, in which you can detect the express counterpart of your measures: Meanwhile I tested each separate squadron, maniple, cohort, to gauge its capabilities…

*

https://archive.org/stream/correspondenc...earch/cato
*

Why would Fronto write this to Lucius Verus? Does this not imply that there are still manipels in Fronto’s time?
Reply
#4
(10-21-2017, 03:10 PM)Julian de Vries Wrote: Why would Fronto write this to Lucius Verus? Does this not imply that there are still manipels in Fronto’s time?

Not particularly - Fronto is quoting Cato, a writer of the 2nd century BC.

Maniples may still have existed as a part of the legion structure in the 2nd century AD - the maniple titles were still used to distinguish the different centuries in the cohort. But the word seems to have been used more loosely by writers as a synonym for legionary troops, long after the maniple ceased to be the principal tactical or administrative subunit of the legion.
Nathan Ross
Reply
#5
Nathan wrote:

But the word seems to have been used more loosely by writers as a synonym for legionary troops, long after the maniple ceased to be the principal tactical or administrative subunit of the legion.
 
What time frame do you believe the maniple ceased to be an integral part of the legion’s military organisation?
Reply
#6
Iuvenalis, Saturae, 5, 16; 6 (auctor c.60-c.130AD)

*

et procul a signis. iustissima centurionum
cognitio est igitur* de milite, nec mihi derit
ultio, si iustae defertur causa querellae.
tota cohors tamen est inimica, omnesque manipli    20
consensu magno efficiunt curabilis ut sit
vindicta et gravior quam* iniuria, dignum erit ergo

Of course, where a soldier is concerned, the decision of the centurion will needs be most equitable; nor shall I lack my just revenge, provided only the ground of the complaint I lay be just and fair. Yet the whole cohort is your sworn enemy ; and all the maniples, with wonderful unanimity, obstruct the course of justice.

*

Cohorts and maniples again.
Reply
#7
(10-22-2017, 05:57 AM)Steven James Wrote: What time frame do you believe the maniple ceased to be an integral part of the legion’s military organisation?

We've discussed this before, principally in this thread.

In brief, I believe that some sort of 'vestigal' manipular structure endured throughout the 1st-3rd centuries AD, in terms of the internal organisation of the cohort. 'Manipular' titles are still used, particularly in the Severan era it seems, and perhaps as late as the 290s going by the Aurelius Gaius inscription. At a guess, I'd say the last traces of this structure might have died out around the era of Diocletian, although the word endured for some time after that as an approximate synonym for legion or army units generally.

But the maniple probably ceased to be an important tactical unit at some point in the 1st century BC. When regular auxiliary units first appear under Augustus, they are organised in centuries and cohorts, not maniples.


(10-22-2017, 12:01 PM)Julian de Vries Wrote: Cohorts and maniples again.

Poetry again! [Image: wink.png]

'Cohorts, maniples and centuries' (or some combination of these terms) is used often in Roman literature to mean 'the army' generally. This does not mean, I think, that it necessarily reflects the contemporary military structure of the day.

Poetry in particular is difficult, as the verses are written in meter - manipli might scan in a way that centuriae (or whatever) does not. Poets are not obliged to use proper terminology.
Nathan Ross
Reply
#8
Nathan wrote:

When regular auxiliary units first appear under Augustus, they are organised in centuries and cohorts, not maniples.
 
Yet Tacitus (Annals 12 56) mentions maniples of the Praetorian Guard. The question as to why the auxiliaries were not organised into maniples had caused me years of angst, and this meant revising my research and re-examining the information. My mistake was I followed the doctrine, as Polybius tells us, of three maniples made a cohort. Caesar provided the answer with his grading list of centurions, primi ordines, superiores ordines, inferiores ordines and infimi ordines. What this means is a cohort was now made up of ordines. This does not mean that maniples was made redundant, but did continued in the legion organisation and the praetorian guards. After that, it was a matter of comparing the praetorian and legion organisation with the auxiliary troops to find the answer as to why the auxiliaries did not have maniples. Basically, the Romans did a major reform of the centurion ranking and bought it in line with the ordo system. It was a great find as I had given up on ever understanding how Caesar’s five ordo rankings worked. And all I had to do on my legion diagram was change a maniple to an ordo and an ordo to a maniple.
Reply
#9
(10-22-2017, 02:34 PM)Steven James Wrote: Yet Tacitus (Annals 12 56) mentions maniples of the Praetorian Guard.

He does - and in 14.59 he has a maniple (probably also Praetorian) numbering 60 men and commanded by a centurion! Yet he very seldom (if ever?) mentions centuries...
Nathan Ross
Reply
#10
SVETONI TRANQVILII VITA DIVI AVGVSTI

[24] In re militari et commutavit multa et instituit, atque etiam ad antiquum morem nonnulla revocavit. Disciplinam severissime rexit: ne legatorum quidem cuiquam, nisi gravate hibernisque demum mensibus, permisit uxorem intervisere. Equitem Romanum, quod duobus filiis adulescentibus causa detrectandi sacramenti pollices amputasset, ipsum bonaque subiecit hastae; quem tamen, quod inminere emptioni publicanos videbat, liberto suo addixit, ut relegatum in agros pro libero esse sineret. Decimam legionem contumacius parentem cum ignominia totam dimisit, item alias immodeste missionem postulantes citra commoda emeritorum praemiorum exauctoravit. Cohortes, si quae cessissent loco, decimatas hordeo pavit. Centuriones statione deserta, itidem ut manipulares, capitali animadversione puniit, pro cetero delictorum genere variis ignominis adfecit, ut stare per totum diem iuberet ante praetorium, interdum tunicatos discinctosque, nonnumquam cum decempedis, vel etiam cespitem portantes.

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/suetonius/suet.aug.html
*
24 [Legamen ad paginam Latinam] 1 He made many changes and innovations in the army, besides reviving some usages of former times. He exacted the strictest discipline. It was with great reluctance that he allowed even his generals to visit their wives, and then only in the winter season. He sold a Roman knight and his property at public auction, because he had cut off the thumbs of two young sons, to make them unfit for military service; but when he saw that some tax-gatherers  p157 were intent upon buying him, he knocked him down to a freedmanº of his own, with the understanding that he should be banished to the country districts, but allowed to live in freedom. 2 He dismissed the entire tenth legion in disgrace, because they were insubordinate, and others, too, that demanded their discharge in an insolent fashion, he disbanded without the rewards which would have been due for faithful service. If any cohorts gave way in battle, he decimated them,21 and fed the rest on barley.22 When centurions left their posts, he punished them with death, just as he did the rank and file; for faults of other kinds he imposed various ignominious penalties, such as ordering to stand all day long before the general's tent, sometimes in their tunics without their sword-belts, or again holding ten-foot poles or even a clod of earth.23

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/ro...stus*.html
*
Another reference to maniples?
Reply
#11
A quick search on (papyri.info). Got some nice results.

http://papyri.info/search?STRING=(manip%...ER_PAGE=15
*
DDbDP transcription: c.ep.lat.24 [xml]
AD17-47 Vindonissa

(t)
Q(uinto) Maio milit(i)
leg(ionis) XIII Gem(inae)
[h]ạsta(to) III manip(uli)

*

DDbDP transcription: c.ep.lat.56 [xml]
Ispc Vindonissa


(t)
Prisco
1/2medico
manip(uli)
Traces

*

DDbDP transcription: c.ep.lat.67 [xml]
? Vindonissa

(t)
V  ̣  ̣  ̣
oni
manip(uli) I(?)   ̣  ̣  ̣

*

As you can see, the legions still have maniples.
Reply
#12
Apuleius, Metamorphoses (The Golden Ass), 9, 9; 5 (auctor c.125–c.180)

Et ecce nobis repente de tergo manipulus armati supercurrunt equites,
At that moment we were suddenly overtaken by a troop of armed horsemen;
*
http://mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xfromcc.php?tabel...jumpto=5#5

https://archive.org/details/TheGoldenAss.../page/n179
*
A reference to a cavalry maniple?
Reply
#13
Jerome’s work against Jovinian seems to contain 2 references to the organization of the Roman Army including maniples. There is now a growing group of evidence for the existence of maniples in the later Roman Army and therefore the old theories must be disbanded. This includes the theory of the so called Greco-nization of the army. The Roman army is build on roman principle, from beginning to the end. Included are also a couple additional references. The first one is some sort of military phrase, which I find difficult to comprehend. Perhaps an allusion to the right and left flank of the army? (A recent thread on RAT about this subject seems to have disappeared.)

Saint Jerome Against Jovinianus circa 393 AD
(https://www.fourthcentury.com/jerome-against-jovinian/)

Book 1, chapter 35

Just as in the legions of the army there are generals, tribunes, centurions, javelin-men, and light-armed troops, common soldiers, and companies, but once the battle begins, all distinctions of rank are dropped, and the one thing looked for is valour: so too in this camp and in this battle, in which we contend against devils, not names but deeds are needed: and under the true commander, Christ, not the man who has the highest title has the greatest fame, but he who is the bravest warrior.
(http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/30091.htm)

Quomodo in legionibus et exercitu sunt duces, sunt tribuni, sunt centuriones, sunt ferentarii, ac levis armaturœ, et miles gregarius, et manipuli ; commissaque pngna, vacant nomma dignitatum,
et sola fortitndo quœritur; ila, in hoc campo et prælio, quo contra dæmones dimicamus, non quœruntur nomina, sed opéra; et gloriosiorille, sub vero imperatore Christo, non qui nobilior, sed qui fortior est.
(https://archive.org/details/JeromeTradBa.../page/n549)
*
Book 2, Chapter 28

This is what we find in heaven and in the administration of God. You must not therefore smile and sneer at us, as is your wont, for making a graduated series of emperors, præfects and counts, tribunes and centurions, companies, and all the other steps in the service.
(http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/30092.htm)

Hoc in ecelis est, hoc in ministorio (Al. mysterio) Dei, ne nossolito more irrideas, atque subsannes, si imperatores (Al. imperatorem) posuerimus, præfectos et comités, et tribunos, et centuriones, et manipulos, et reliquum militiæ ordinem.
(https://archive.org/details/JeromeTradBa.../page/n619)
*
Book 2, Chapter 34

If you do away with the gradations of the tabernacle, the temple, the Church, if, to use a common military phrase, all upon the right hand are to be "up to the same standard," bishops are to no purpose, priests in vain, deacons useless.
(http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/30092.htm)

Si tollis ordinem Tabernaculi, Templi, Ecclesiæ, si omnes qui a dextris sunt, unum, ut vulgo dicitur, encorna ad militiam probat, nequidquam episcopi, frustra presbyteri, sine causa diaconi sunt.
(https://archive.org/details/JeromeTradBa.../page/n627)
*
Book 1, Chapter 34

Does it follow that because all the strongest men are chosen for the army, weaker men should not be taken as well? All cannot be strong. If an army were constituted of strength only, and numbers went for nothing, the feebler men might be rejected. As it is, men of second or third-rate strength are chosen, that the army may have its full numerical complement.
(http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/30091.htm)

Numquid quia in exercitu fortissimus quisque eligendus est, idcirco non assumentur et infirmiores, cum omnes fortes esse non possint? Si exercitus viribns tantum constaret, et non etiam numéro militum, abjicerentur imbecilliores. Nunc et secundarum et tertiarum virium gradus assumitur, ut turbaet numéro exercitus compleatur.
(https://archive.org/details/JeromeTradBa.../page/n547)
*
Reply
#14
Julian de Vries Wrote:Jerome’s work against Jovinian seems to contain 2 references to the organization of the Roman Army including maniples. There is now a growing group of evidence for the existence of maniples in the later Roman Army and therefore the old theories must be disbanded.

There's a saying in the Tibetan Book of the Dead, you can stand in the market and bellow out the secrets of life, but if no one is listening it remains a secret. The old theories will not be disbanded, as to do so will mean some have to admit they were wrong. That will never happen. It is egos before truth.
Reply
#15
Every age we see the same unfortunate patterns.

Nichiren says in Three Tripitaka Masters Pray for Rain:
And what of these admonitions of mine? Because people regard them with suspicion and refuse to heed them, disasters such as those we now face occur. If the Mongols should attack us with great force, I am sure that the teachings of the Lotus Sutra will spread far and wide in this present lifetime. At such a time, those persons who have treated me harshly will have reason to regret.
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Legion organization and Organization Charts Lothia 11 3,379 08-29-2007, 07:09 PM
Last Post: D B Campbell
  Heraclius army organization and units names comitatus (Marco) 3 1,824 03-07-2007, 01:36 PM
Last Post: Robert Vermaat
  Heraclius army organization and units names comitatus (Marco) 3 1,845 03-06-2007, 07:59 PM
Last Post: comitatus (Marco)

Forum Jump: