Real Deal Spolas

[Sean Manning]

Right, "dunno". but, just because Homer and some others might describe a process for making soft leather, it doesn't mean that was the only way. Buff coats: don't seem to match stiffness in vase depictions --do you see wrinkles in those? (we need to make a distinction between those that might depict quilted linen or twining vs. leather), seem to be used in countries where waterproofing was needed. Folks in Africa have apparently known for a long time how to do it:
http://www.gateway-africa.com/howdidthey...-roots.jpg

http://www.gateway-africa.com/howdidthey...skins.html

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"Academicky":
https://www.academia.edu/36710424/_Veget...hers_2018_

Have they or are you just assuming that if modern herders and hunter-gatherers do it, ancient ones must have? It seems that people often change subsistence strategies in response to say an outbreak of warfare making it unsafe to farm or a plague killing too many to make the old solution work. They often invent or reinvent 'primitive' solutions which they had not used previously, because none of this stuff is that complicated and because if they don't they die.

So people used to assume that vegetable tanning was primeval, but its just not in the archaeological record of northern Europe until Roman times, and there are kinds of leather which would produce no archaeological evidence which are even simpler to make.

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I don't see wrinkles in the 17th century buff coats I have seen unless they were cut that way (ie. with a big skirt which is meant to fall in folds), and serious leather armour would probably be several layers sewn together. That would be stiffer. Buff coats were mostly meant to keep the armour from staining the clothing, to stop powder burns, and to stop sword cuts.

[Feinman]

Perhaps the answer is right under our noses:
http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?t=6811

I'm going to do some tests on the leather with the formulations listed by the folks on that forum. Thats exactly the kind of formulation I was thinking of, and now I see it's been used for leather military items before.. Even the white lead. Not gonna use that formulation..

[Crispianus]

Perhaps the answer is right under our noses:
http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?t=6811

It is one method that is also known from North America, the Native Americans apparantly used white clay balls to clean their white buckskin (unsmoked presumably) clothes, which were reserved for special occasions only as they were otherwise too prone to water damage... thats what I've read anyway.

I think white lead would work as it does seem to be a method of whitening veg tanned leather, at least according to tanning/finishing etc books from the lateish 19th century.

Another contender may be Tin Oxide this was used in makeup during the Roman Era:

https://www.oxbowbooks.com/oxbow/temples...hwark.html

So I guess there are lots of potential possibilitys

[Crispianus]

Just one thing more according to Theoprastus "Enquiry into plants" refers to Sumac:

" Tanners use this tree for dying White leather" 

It does indeed produce a very light tanned leather but not perfectly white, but could be whitened further by other means, some of which have already been mentioned.

[Feinman]

Just one thing more according to Theoprastus "Enquiry into plants" refers to Sumac:

" Tanners use this tree for dying White leather" 

It does indeed produce a very light tanned leather but not perfectly white, but could be whitened further by other means, some of which have already been mentioned.

Yes! I also ran into the sumac tanning information. My thoughts, exactly.

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I suspect Sepici uses sumac in their mix:
https://maverickleathercompany.com/produ...ci-v1-veg/

[Feinman]

Sumac and lead together in one process here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=BThDAQ...22&f=false

"Enquiry into plants"
https://www.academia.edu/27253337/Theoph...nd_Tanning

[Crispianus]

Sumac and lead together in one process here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=BThDAQ...22&f=false

"Enquiry into plants"
https://www.academia.edu/27253337/Theoph...nd_Tanning

I did think about that one, but this one may be more appropriate as all the ingredients would have been readily available:

The lead Bleach page 71 "Leather Dressing (including dyeing, staining & finishing) 1907"

Sumac (tanners sumac), lead oxide and acetic Acid (vinegar) for "sugar of lead" (lead acetate), common Vitriol (uncertain which kind since ferric sulphate turns veg-tanned leather black and copper sulphate has no effect, would require a test) I think thats it.

[Feinman]

Thanks Ivor, that sounds right!  I think the vitriol might be referring to alum. My plan is to make a size solution of hide glue with a bit of alum; I am going to mix titanium dioxide and a bit of powdered marble into it to create a paste, which I will sponge into the surface. This should keep things flexible and strengthen them a bit while whitening the leather.  When dry, I plan on a final coat of a drying oil (safflower probably) with beeswax and a bit more titanium white.  This should almost waterproof the whole, and seal it, while the basic properties of the white sizing should counteract any damaging acids from the drying oil finishing coat.  I have sealed a lot of leather with the beeswax / oil; it's also an oil painting medium, and very flexible.

[Crispianus]

In the context of the book I last quoted "The lead bleach 71", I've come to the conclusion that "Vitriol" refers to Sulphuric Acid which would put it in line with other books on the subject from the late 19th century. 

As such I think it would be unlikely at best that "the lead bleach" would have been used in antiquity, even though it might have been possible to obtain a dilute solution of sulphuric acid from mine water, as I have seen some reference to mine water and Vitriol(from ancient authors unfortunatly I can't quote it at the moment), this doesn't however rule out White lead (lead acetate) as a pigment.

So I think that Threophastus is literally talking about dying White leather with sumac using it as a mordant or a colour, though its tanning properties cannot be disputed.
As such when Theophrastus refers to White leather in this context I think he's talking about tawed or cured leather(unsmoked).

[Feinman]

I agree. I do think that the white lead could have been used as a pigment on tanned leathers (I suspect you do too), and the lighter the leather color the better.

[Crispianus]

I agree.  I do think that the white lead could have been used as a pigment on tanned leathers (I suspect you do too), and the lighter the leather color the better.

I though you might find this interesting you'll likely need to use a translator though (see the armour):

The peoples of the Kuban region in the VI century.  BC.  - III century  AD  Part 1

[Feinman]

I agree.  I do think that the white lead could have been used as a pigment on tanned leathers (I suspect you do too), and the lighter the leather color the better.

I though you might find this interesting you'll likely need to use a translator though (see the armour):

The peoples of the Kuban region in the VI century.  BC.  - III century  AD  Part 1

Ivor, thanks for the great link!! I was able to get in there and take a look this morning before the picture links broke, and that armour is pretty amazing..
I have all of my supplies now, though I will need to get some thinner leather for the ptyreges and scales. I am making progress --already have the "breastplate" portion cut out of the 12 gauge leather. Pics soon.

[Feinman]

Okay.. I have found a way to lighten the leather to almost white while maintaining complete flexibility, and making it water-resistant / proof! The finish will not scrape off; it's permanently in the fibers of the leather, and the materials were available and in use at the time. Pics in a few.

[Feinman]

Okay..  I have found a way to lighten the leather to almost white while maintaining complete flexibility, and making it water-resistant / proof!  The finish will not scrape off; it's permanently in the fibers of the leather, and the materials were available and in use at the time.  Pics in a few.  Details about process forthcoming!  There is also a pic of the "breastplate" cut out of 12 gauge, and the cartoon for the tooled and painted chest reinforcement.

   
   
   

[Feinman]

Lemme get the procedure out and I'll describe it in more detail later.
It involves using purchased milk paint with lime, this stuff (I was using old Bioshield brand, but this looks identical):
https://www.amazon.com/Old-Fashioned-Mil...4954&psc=1
First the leather is saturated with a very weak size made from rabbit skin glue and a small amount of alum 1/4 tsp and a small amount of calcium carbonate 1tsp, most of which precipitated out -- just wanted to keep solution basic as opposed to acidic. Leather is saturated with it with brush or sponge (foam brush is what I'm using). Then a very weak almost transparent solution of milkpaint made with the same weak size instead of water with a small amount of titanium dioxide added is applied to the wet leather with a foam brush, in very wet parallel overlapping strokes. This shpukd create an even coat with few striations. Then let it dry. Apply another coat, with strokes at right angle to last, same way. let dry. polish lightly with cloth, rub in a mixture of four parts purified linseed oil and 1 of stand oil and 1 part natural beeswax meted together and stirred and cooled, and a bit of titanium dioxide mxed together. and made into a paste. rub it into the surface of the now lightened leathef and let dry.