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Why ancient Romans and Italians were so good at warfare, and modern Italians are not
#16
I think that the reply is quite obvious, and depends on the society that was behind Roman soldiers, and the society that was behind Italy in IIWW. Because I think that all similar dicussions start from the IIWW. The society behind Rome was a really innovative one, that generated a lot of interesting leaders, and a society in which the attention to the public interest was extremely high. This society has been able for a long time to support its army.

Something radically different in the IIWW. Italian society in that period has been able to produce few quality leaders, at all levels. The dictatorship favored unique thinking and punished those who thought differently, with the result of promoting mediocre figures, but good at saying yes. Aside from official proclamations, the real interest in the military was low, and the armies were not in good status.
One of the most interesting point is the discussion in the navy concerning the building of aircraft carriers. Mussolini partecipated in a discussion in which navy staff state rejected the adoption of aircraft carriers, because they were considered useless in the Mediterranean theater. The war proved otherwise, but the damage was now done.
For the army? a similar situation. Germany was investing in war of movement. In Italy? Old guard generals were still thinking to the mule and dolabra (a kind of pickaxe).

So, Italian Army in the second world war... was simply not ready for it. As its society was not ready for it. Apart this, we should add that Italy had not the vast resources of other countries.

Following this situation, the result is obvious. Instead, it is interesting to see the self-sacrifice of many Italian soldiers who were second to none. I could think to Enrico Frattini's Folgore men, or to the men of the Ariete. Or, to the men of the X MAS that alone sank many British ships with extreme courage.

I hope this answer will give you the desire to read more about it. Wink
- CaesarAugustus
www.romanempire.cloud
(Marco Parente)
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#17
This is caused by a number of factors to take into consideration.

First, the ancient Roman warfare during the last days of the empire started declining. This was partly due to the fact that there wasn't enough gold to pay her legions, and we find that auxiliary units became popular. And keep in mind, these soldiers on the frontier of her Empire were not Roman. They were mercenaries from all walks of life.

If you fast forward through the centuries, you will begin to see that the Romans of say 50 B.C. to now 2020, the people (the Italic people of Italy) have changed so much, that now it's dichotomy of culture, mentality and a great many things more.

It is safe to say that the true Romans of old, only exist now dispersed genetically with a lot of other European peoples. And today, the Italians comprise many other cultures and factions which have interbred throughout the centuries.

Also let us not forget the policies Rome had in place for citizenship. Anybody from virtually any culture and civilization, (race and creed) could become a Roman citizen. So you have a scenario where, you are influencing the Roman populous more and more through the years of that happening, where eventually, the very "pure" fabric of her people got interwoven with these "cultural" differences...

So today, what we call Italians, are not true "Romans" and therefore there can be no argument or comparison.
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#18
(06-13-2019, 06:53 PM)Shield And Spear Art Wrote: In modern war, you can't take a ragtag group of people, give them weapons, tell them to go conquer somewhere and expect them to have much success.  


Not that we are going to discuss modern history here, but tell this to the Americans who fought in Vietnam or the Russians who fought in Afghanistan (or actually any Western army fighting in Afghanistan).

And don't say Marius did not let his troops train, of course he did.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#19
(01-09-2018, 09:52 AM)Corvus Wrote: I was always asking myself the questions, why ancient Romans and Italians were so good at warfare and also disciplined and stoic, but modern Italians are not?
Of course the question is also are modern Italians descendants of Romans, Etruscans, Samnites.
It seems the roman mentality was different to the typical Mediterranean mentality.
Have you given any thought to why Modern and i think you mean WW2 italian perforence being rather poor is in such contrast to antiquity, as how wars are fought, modern wars ( i mean in terms of advanced thechnology) downplays to a large extent the contribution of bravery etc by letting technology do the heavy lifting instead of  close range shock action its killing at a distance that is the norm.

 Modern warfare ( here i mean wars are determined by human and material resource base and how they used at rates one side can mainatain and the other cannot) usually use the strategy of exhustion to win, just as did Rome in antiquity, but generaly wars were fought and decided by a couple ( or single) of major battles and thats it we have shown our superoirity and we dictate teh peace terms. WW 2 Italy had inferior doctrine and equipment and in ww2 poor leadership. Otoh its Blue division on the Russian front hada strong showing, while in N Africa on land and sea it was thrashed on a regular bassis. But teh most crippling modern war problem for Italy was its lack of oil and industrial base, it was simply outclassed in what was needed to wage war in ww2. Try here https://www.amazon.co.uk/Economics-World...ernational-

(01-09-2018, 09:52 AM)Corvus Wrote: Yes, I think that culture, organisation and mentality are very important to military success. I dont believe that genetics are. 

Ok but agression levels are determined by genes, the MOA gene is linked to being agressive and not havig emoitional issues fromm performing voilence, its known as the warrior gene, M Howard used to lecture on some nations thinking voilence was just right and normal to settle disputes, a cultural propensity for voilence. Males are far more likley to use voilence as a problem solver than females, some men are far more likley to use voilence than othr males, see here https://bsj.berkeley.edu/born-to-kill-th...ler-genes/ Women soilders suffer twice the PTSD etc disorders than do males, geniticly they are pre disposed not to cope with life threatening events, and use of voilence.
(01-09-2018, 09:52 AM)Corvus Wrote: Well I would prefer a more detailed answer  Smile
Especially on the subject of roman mentality.
And how it changed with time.


Levels of eduction in the general population have made them more aware that being told to go to war because God says is right to do so, your soveriegn tells you do do as its your duty, or else often end up with your death for gains you cannot fathom or benifit from.
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