Saint Patrick & Names along the Antonine wall

[MonsGraupius]

Muildy=Medio, NEMETON=Nemthur=Neutur=Notyr and Dobiadon=Dumbarton?

Muildy does not sound to me like 'Medio', and it doesn't mean 'middle' either.

Local people pronounce it "medi" or "midi" with a silent L.
I suggest it's related to the Welsh medi (to reap)

Fiach's scholiast says that Nemthur was Dumbarton, not 'nemeton', nor Old Kilpatrick.

Dumbarton Rock is on the same reach of the Clyde as Old Kilpatrick/Nemthur. As a well known place, it would be natural to refer to Dumbarton Rock when explaining where Nemthur was.

'Nemeton', if it is a word, is in the middle of the RC Antonine Wall list, not at one end.

We are given 10 places where "Britain was thinnest". If they meant along the wall they would have said along the wall. In contrast, we are told there were 7 ON THE WALL and NEMETON is the 7th.

'(Sub)Dobiadon' only sounds like Dumbarton if you say it with a mouthful of peas.

So according to your logic Welsh Dom is not the same word as Welsh douu??
And if you hadn't realised DuMbarton is in DuNbartonshire. This shows the way that "M" is not very distinct in the local dialect.

Anyway, Dumbarton is the medieval name; in the 5th-6th century it was called Alt Clud, which doesn't sound like any of these names.

In the Roman texts the river is called the Clota. It then becomes Alt Chluaidh lit. "Rock of the Clyde". The alternative name is dobiadon or dombiadon, which became Dunbarton , Dumbarton (earliest post Roman form Dunberton).

The relationship is like that between "Edinburgh" and it's hill which is called "Castle Hill" which is on "Royal mile".

I am beginning to think that if I went to Old Kilpatrick and found in the ground a signpost saying "NEMETON" you'd still say: "But it's only a single source".

If you did that I would applaud your genius detective-work. But you have not.

Getting three good name matches, IN THE RIGHT PLACE, backed by historic evidence is BETTER. (name slabs can be moved, but historic evidence saying its the right place does not have that issue).

How do you know they are not independently coming to the same conclusion based on three different sources?... unless we have EVIDENCE to show there was only one source.

As you know it is impossible to use evidence to prove a negative. If there were other sources, what were they? Why does nobody mention them?

I am merely asking you to apply the absurd tests you throw at me to your own assertions. And as soon as I do, you crumble and say you can't support your assertion that there was only one source.

Tafarn-y-Banwen looks to me too far from the sea to be even one of the "also ran" contenders.

14 miles. These Irish pirates must have been very easy to avoid if they were put off by that distance.

A days march from the sea - another day's march back. I think we are told that it was close to the sea (but I've not checked that source).

Where does he learn his barbarous Latin?

Good question! If it wasn't his native language, how did he come to speak it?...

We have inscriptional evidence for the survival of Latin in the post-Roman west of Britain, alongside the native 'Cumbric' language. That Patrick grew up speaking a pretty rustic sort of Latin, mingled with British, would not be surprising. This doesn't tell us anything about where he was from.

"This doesn't tell us anything about where he was from." .... but you're the one arguing that he can't be from Strathclyde because of his language.

a small, relatively isolated community formed largely from runaway slaves and persecuted religious groups like Christians (who tended to be from the lower orders of society).

By the birth of Patrick, Christians had not been persecuted for over 100 years. The whole empire was officially Christian, from the emperors downward, and had been for decades. Christians had not been principally 'from the lower orders' since the days of Nero.

If you have any evidence for small communities of Latin-speaking Christians, who call themselves 'Romans', living anywhere outside the old borders of the empire in 'barbarian' territory, in the 4th or 5th century, you might get some support for this idea. If not, you're relying on imagination.

The first document recording St.Alban's martyrdom is dated around 396AD. In 429AD, Bishop Germanus of Auxerre visited and reportedly took away relics of the earth which was still bloodied. How long does blood sit around?

However, Germanus also tells us that even after Christianity became official, it still had its problems as he says:

"Agricola, a Pelagian, the son of the Pelagian bishop Severianus, corrupted the British churches by the insinuation of his doctrine. But at the persuasion of the deacon Palladius, Pope Celestine sent Germanus, bishop of Auxerre, as his representative, and having rejected the heretics, directed the British to the catholic faith."

So, it is quite possible that early Christians with alternative views of doctrine were forced to flee the empire AFTER IT BECAME CHRISTIAN.

But, it's also feasible that the early community in Strathclyde was created by the original persecutions around 305AD and that Patrick's family chose to remain in Strathclyde and was still there in the late 300s when he was born. By my reckoning,if Patrick's family fled during the Diocletion persecutions then Patrick would be a 3rd generation born in Strathclyde. However his family may have moved at any time as missionaries.

And one last thing - have you noticed that Patrick's Grandfather A PRIEST was not exactly celibate. Statutes forbidding clergy from having wives were written beginning with the Council of Elvira (306) ... another good reason a priest and his wife might flee.