09-24-2019, 10:48 AM
Michael Taylor wrote:
But if you want to write a history of Middle Republic, you are either inside the warm and cozy Polybius Club enjoying your free drink, or you are outside in the cold reading Appian's story of the duel between Scipio and Hannibal and insisting that this must contain some sort of Gnostic truth.
No Michael, it does not have to be that way…your either in one camp or the other. Let all ancient historians share the stage and treat them all equally. They all provide vital information. And as for duels, does not Livy or Polybius mention Paullus at Cannae went hunting for Hannibal.
Michael Taylor wrote:
And why would Hannibal be short of supplies? He's in his home territory.
Hannibal is not short of supplies, Carthage is short of supplies. The supplies are meant for Carthage.
Michael Taylor wrote:
This is where Polybius' series of events (which Polybius has probably compressed time-wise) still makes the most sense.
After studying Polybius line by line, regarding the African campaign, I cannot support your view. Parts of Polybius’ account borders on the ridiculous.
My account:
Carthaginian army destroyed at Utica
Syphax captured at Utica
Carthaginians open negotiations for peace based on a position of power.
Scipio given power of attorney to decided on peace terms
Peace terms are: Hannibal and Mago to leave Italy. Rome controls Spain. Carthage not to make war on Rome or its allies.
Hannibal returns to Africa at Hadrumetum
Concern in Roman senate about two armies in Africa (Hannibal and Hasdrubal). Concerns in Rome of whether there will be war or peace.
Mago continues to drag his feet. Scipio gives an alternation that Mago must leave Italy by a specific time.
Mago continues to drag his feet. Scipio moves into Carthaginian territory and cuts food supplies to Carthage.
Carthage orders Hannibal to collect food at Hadrumetum and ship to Carthage. Carthaginian food ships are destroyed in a storm. This has been turned into Roman supply ships being captured by the Carthaginians.
Mago leaves Italy. Roman senate concerned that Scipio will face three armies (Hannibal, Hasdrubal and Mago’s armies), sends the consul Nero with a consular army to Africa. This is the supposed Roman supply fleet that the Carthaginians supposedly captured when some are caught in a storm near Carthage.
Hannibal moves to around Carthage to maintain food supplies to Carthage. This results in some skirmishes…a small cavalry engagement at Zama of no significance and a convoy of food being sent to Carthage, captured by the Romans.
Scipio is informed of Mago’s arrival in Africa.
Hannibal sends delegates to finalise peace.
Hannibal moves his army closer to Scipio and camps on ground with little water, but it is not important the peace treaty will be signed the following day.
Hannibal with 10 delegates sign the peace treaty.
Within 60 days all Roman forces leave Africa.
None of the above has been put together lightly. It is all there in the primary sources.
But if you want to write a history of Middle Republic, you are either inside the warm and cozy Polybius Club enjoying your free drink, or you are outside in the cold reading Appian's story of the duel between Scipio and Hannibal and insisting that this must contain some sort of Gnostic truth.
No Michael, it does not have to be that way…your either in one camp or the other. Let all ancient historians share the stage and treat them all equally. They all provide vital information. And as for duels, does not Livy or Polybius mention Paullus at Cannae went hunting for Hannibal.
Michael Taylor wrote:
And why would Hannibal be short of supplies? He's in his home territory.
Hannibal is not short of supplies, Carthage is short of supplies. The supplies are meant for Carthage.
Michael Taylor wrote:
This is where Polybius' series of events (which Polybius has probably compressed time-wise) still makes the most sense.
After studying Polybius line by line, regarding the African campaign, I cannot support your view. Parts of Polybius’ account borders on the ridiculous.
My account:
Carthaginian army destroyed at Utica
Syphax captured at Utica
Carthaginians open negotiations for peace based on a position of power.
Scipio given power of attorney to decided on peace terms
Peace terms are: Hannibal and Mago to leave Italy. Rome controls Spain. Carthage not to make war on Rome or its allies.
Hannibal returns to Africa at Hadrumetum
Concern in Roman senate about two armies in Africa (Hannibal and Hasdrubal). Concerns in Rome of whether there will be war or peace.
Mago continues to drag his feet. Scipio gives an alternation that Mago must leave Italy by a specific time.
Mago continues to drag his feet. Scipio moves into Carthaginian territory and cuts food supplies to Carthage.
Carthage orders Hannibal to collect food at Hadrumetum and ship to Carthage. Carthaginian food ships are destroyed in a storm. This has been turned into Roman supply ships being captured by the Carthaginians.
Mago leaves Italy. Roman senate concerned that Scipio will face three armies (Hannibal, Hasdrubal and Mago’s armies), sends the consul Nero with a consular army to Africa. This is the supposed Roman supply fleet that the Carthaginians supposedly captured when some are caught in a storm near Carthage.
Hannibal moves to around Carthage to maintain food supplies to Carthage. This results in some skirmishes…a small cavalry engagement at Zama of no significance and a convoy of food being sent to Carthage, captured by the Romans.
Scipio is informed of Mago’s arrival in Africa.
Hannibal sends delegates to finalise peace.
Hannibal moves his army closer to Scipio and camps on ground with little water, but it is not important the peace treaty will be signed the following day.
Hannibal with 10 delegates sign the peace treaty.
Within 60 days all Roman forces leave Africa.
None of the above has been put together lightly. It is all there in the primary sources.
