Would jeweler's brass make an effective shield boss?

[Dan D'Silva]

Hello,

I once again beg for your technical advice.  I've found a relatively cheap source of jeweler's brass, which I understand to be the same thing as red brass and jeweler's bronze, an 85:15 percent mix of copper and zinc.  It's supposed to look more like typical high-tin bronze than common yellow brass does.  So I was thinking of using it for one of those flat violin shield bosses and a domed boss for a center-gripped shield.  Is 14-gauge red brass likely to hold up to any degree of reenactment fighting, or is it too soft and/or thin?

Also, for anyone who's forged their own bosses, is it likely to lose a significant amount of diameter when shaped?  Is 6 inches too small to fit over a 5-inch hole?  If it makes any difference, I'm planning to affix them with a large number of escutcheon pins instead of a small number of rivets.

[Crispianus]

Hello,

I once again beg for your technical advice.  I've found a relatively cheap source of jeweler's brass, which I understand to be the same thing as red brass and jeweler's bronze, an 85:15 percent mix of copper and zinc.  It's supposed to look more like typical high-tin bronze than common yellow brass does.  So I was thinking of using it for one of those flat violin shield bosses and a domed boss for a center-gripped shield.  Is 14-gauge red brass likely to hold up to any degree of reenactment fighting, or is it too soft and/or thin?

Also, for anyone who's forged their own bosses, is it likely to lose a significant amount of diameter when shaped?  Is 6 inches too small to fit over a 5-inch hole?  If it makes any difference, I'm planning to affix them with a large number of escutcheon pins instead of a small number of rivets.

Any 14g brass should be fine for a boss but it will take damage all bosses do, how much depends on shape as well ie a conical boss is likely the deflect force better then a dome, of course if a dome is what was used then historically you have to stick with it.
With brass I would suggest successively annealing it as you work it and finally work harden it at the end or heat harden, most brass can be worked hot at dull orange quite easily in my experience.

My preference though for reenactment has always been a 14g mild steel cone, strongest takes least damage.

For the rim, work the metal outwards on the inside using a cross peen hammer to broaden the rim, its better fixing with a few nails rather then many small ones, though again use what was historically done.

Make the boss so your hand fits in it comfortably with a bit of space with it on the board, the short answer to shrinkage is no.

Generally I prefer to cut a shaped hand hole in the shield, rather then just a circle, with the grip as part of the shield board or grafted in, the upper part larger to accomodate the hand, and make the boss to fit comportably over this arrangement.

[Dan Howard]

Yep. Shields and armour were meant to be damaged. If you came out of a battle with your gear unblemished, you would be accused of not pulling your weight if not outright cowardice. It was a source of pride to have your gear so damaged that it fell apart because it showed that you were in the thick of the fighting. Reenactors overbuild everything so they don't have to repair their stuff after every event.

[Crispianus]

Reenactors overbuild everything so they don't have to repair their stuff after every event.

I agree...

[Dan D'Silva]

Thank you.  I'll give it a try if I can't find a wider piece I can afford.

For the rim, work the metal outwards on the inside using a cross peen hammer to broaden the rim, its better fixing with a few nails rather then many small ones, though again use what was historically done.

Neat.  I hadn't thought the rim could be made wider.

The reason I think of using escutcheon pins is because the violin shield boss from Samos has a lot of tiny holes around the edge, as do some other purported ancient bronze bosses.  It might also have been stitched through the board, I suppose.  Either way, the method of attachment seems not to have been quite the same as for the later Roman and Migration period shields.

Generally I prefer to cut a shaped hand hole in the shield, rather then just a circle, with the grip as part of the shield board or grafted in, the upper part larger to accomodate the hand, and make the boss to fit comportably over this arrangement.

Well, I have stupidly already cut a five-inch hole in the center-gripped one, so there's nothing to do except look for metal that's wide enough.  But yeah, a slightly smaller hole would've sufficed.

Reenactors overbuild everything so they don't have to repair their stuff after every event.

Indeed -- and I'll admit that's what I intend to do.  It'd be kind of a luxury to me to have one overbuilt shield and one more authentic one.  (Though AFAIK we still don't know how those violin shields were actually made, so true accuracy isn't on the table -- "plausible" would be the best to hope for.) It doesn't matter so much whether the one I have gets dinged up, I'd just like it to survive a few battles without having to undergo a major rebuild -- or failing in use such that it puts me at risk of injury.

[Crispianus]

just a note:
I am refering too "Standard Wire Gauge" (UK Standard or was) 14g or 14SWG which is 2.03mm thick call it 2mm. By this standard the metal your referring too at 1.63mm is 16SWG, so were not really on the same page here.

"Jeweller's Brass" likely equivalent "Gilding metal" (what I know it as) is approx 5/1 copper/zinc.

If I was making such a shield I dont think I would use a a center grip boss, as personally I would find the orientation a problem since you would have to decide for a horizontal or vertical grip, and the hand hold shape I described would I think only be usefull for a horizontal grip on such a shield and if you look at oval shields this is the way it usually is.

Ditch the boss idea I honestly cant see any real evidence for it, the type of grip I'd go for would be leather straps X held at the center in a fist, alternative )( but with this you only have one orientation. There needs to be padding underneath the grip to protect the hand.

The wood of the shield should be a light but reasonable thick plywood, really dense heavy plywood is unnecesary and would likely end up to heavy, and what your aiming for is a strong light shield capable of taking damage, shape the front so it thins to all the edges forming a slightly curved surface this is to reduce weight, cover the front with a layer of medium thickness linen(or two layers of a thinner cloth) soaked in thinned wood glue, ordinary pva will do, wrap the cloth round the edges of the shield board, cover the back as well if you wish with a thin cloth, this will help to absorb damage make the shield stronger without an excessive increase in weight.
Edge the final result with a strip of rawhide (leather won't do) about an inch or so deep on the face of the shield and stitch in place with a course thread (no nails) this will protect the edge.

The cross-straps will allow to hold the shield with a horizontal or vertical grip.

Just some ideas you may find usefull.

[Crispianus]

Despite what I said in the last post I found a group of six conical bosses (omphaloi) from a Neo Assyrian/Uratu context in:

Late Assyrian Arms and Armour, Art versus Artifact 2010

Excavated in 1936 by B B Piotrovskiĭ they are 15cm in diameter and height and perfectly conical engraved and with a flange for mounting on wicker shields of which there was apparantly evidence found.

About the Ancient City founded in the 7th century BC and destroyed by fire in the 6th: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teishebaini

I think its close enough to be relevant.

[Dan D'Silva]

Neat!

There is a little more evidence about the violin shields than my previous post may have implied.  A few of the reliefs from Persepolis show them from the back, and they're held in such a way that they must have an armband and an off-center handgrip.

IIRC gilding metal is indeed another name for this kind of brass.  I don't know the name of the gauge system that most of the sellers I've seen use, but under it, the equivalent to 14SWG would be 12-gauge (0.08 inches = just about 2.03mm).  At that point the options and number of sellers narrow, and the price shoots up.  It would probably have made sense to not cut out a hand hole in the center-gripped shield at all, and instead given it a protruding grip and a thinner-gauge boss on top of the shield board (this seems to be how LBA Eastern Mediterranean shields were made), but no use crying over spilled milk.  The violin shield can function with a thinner boss since it won't have a cutout for the hand.  Thankfully I have not yet invested in any materials for it, so it'll be easier to plan correctly.

[Crispianus]

Neat!

There is a little more evidence about the violin shields than my previous post may have implied.  A few of the reliefs from Persepolis show them from the back, and they're held in such a way that they must have an armband and an off-center handgrip.

IIRC gilding metal is indeed another name for this kind of brass.  I don't know the name of the gauge system that most of the sellers I've seen use, but under it, the equivalent to 14SWG would be 12-gauge (0.08 inches = just about 2.03mm).  At that point the options and number of sellers narrow, and the price shoots up.  It would probably have made sense to not cut out a hand hole in the center-gripped shield at all, and instead given it a protruding grip and a thinner-gauge boss on top of the shield board (this seems to be how LBA Eastern Mediterranean shields were made), but no use crying over spilled milk.  The violin shield can function with a thinner boss since it won't have a cutout for the hand.  Thankfully I have not yet invested in any materials for it, so it'll be easier to plan correctly.

The gauge problem occured to me when I did a search for ready made shield bosses, they seemed so inconsistant on gauge, so I checked the page for the link you gave for actual thickness of metal, and found that the measurements only fit according to my admittedly old tables 16SWG (these days I use metric) it turns out it appears to be AWG or American Wire Gauge, not one I've dealt with before and curiously its the only one that exactly fits on the table with a SWG measurement, in other words you cant simple say its a couple of sizes smaller eg: 16AWG doesnt become 18SWG but a little less then 17SWG... curious.  It could be a problem though for anyone ordering ready made items online and not something I'd previously considered, so knowing the actual thickness of the base plate is more important.

I've seen some greek vase images of Persians with X I crossed arm straps and handgrip but they were for long curved pelta types (not sure what you'd call them), but thought it too awkward for a Violin shaped shield, but if you think it will work for you try it.
1.5mm or there abouts would be find for a center plate you could do with less though.
A 14SWG plate at 2mm would be considerably less at the apex of a domed boss, maybe 16SWG but again that should be fine..
As always refine the overall weight of the shield to something that is truly useable for you.

Incidently I've used a long shield in that general arrangement X I before, center grip is preferable.

[Dan Howard]

Bosses were not always over the hand. Some were placed elsewhere on the shield's surface for additional reinforcing. If the boss seems too small to cover the fist and/or doesn't show any indication of having an attached hand grip then it may not have been the primary boss and a different one was actually used to cover the hand. Though, the above-mentioned 15 cm conical boss almost certainly was for hand protection.

[Crispianus]

Bosses were not always over the hand. Some were placed elsewhere on the shield's surface for additional reinforcing. If the boss seems too small to cover the fist and/or doesn't show any indication of having an attached hand grip then it may not have been the primary boss and a different one was actually used to cover the hand. Though, the above-mentioned 15 cm conical boss almost certainly was for hand protection.

I Agree, there were 9 bosses found not six according to the thesis, in two groups, a group of six that has a photo seems to show the method of attachment, a series of closed spaced holes perhaps about half an inch apart around the rim, which I think could be for lacing if indeed they are shield bosses for wicker shields this would make sense.

Did come across a large flat topped boss with a broad rim dia 13.9cm from Nimrud seems to have had something attached to the center, from a thesis recently published, see Cat No 667 internal diamension though is around 8cm across according to the drawing, its described as a funiture fitting?:

An Examination of Late Assyrian Metalwork

Late Assyrian reliefs seem to often show a center grip, though this appear to be by a solid handle (perhaps occasionally a strap) on the back of the shields made from all types of material, similar to the kind you see on embossed round bronze shields, and the handles often seem to turn up in Neo Assyrians contexts.

[Dan D'Silva]

Had a couple of ideas:

Do you think a half-inch-thick wooden boss covered inside and out with thin glued leather and a 14AWG/16SWG boss on top would stand up to use, or is it more likely to be a liability when the wood cracks?

I had also thought of just using a bell cymbal with a little piece of metal soldered over the hole and the lathed grooves planished away.  Cursory research indicates that they tend to be thick enough at 2-2.5mm, but are commonly made of bronze with a 20 percent tin content and prone to cracking when struck too hard.  And that's just with a drumstick, not a blunt steel spear. They're sometimes made of softer bronze, so maybe I can find one that would work.

[Crispianus]

Had a couple of ideas:

Do you think a half-inch-thick wooden boss covered inside and out with thin glued leather and a 14AWG/16SWG boss on top would stand up to use, or is it more likely to be a liability when the wood cracks?

I had also thought of just using a bell cymbal with a little piece of metal soldered over the hole and the lathed grooves planished away.  Cursory research indicates that they tend to be thick enough at 2-2.5mm, but are commonly made of bronze with a 20 percent tin content and prone to cracking when struck too hard.  And that's just with a drumstick, not a blunt steel spear.  They're sometimes made of softer bronze, so maybe I can find one that would work.

Easily I think decent wood is pretty forgiving, I once watched three guys try to destroy an 8mm x 80cm round shield made of Linden, not even good linden, glued edge to edge planks no covering or anything else, of course they did...... eventually.
Leather on wood? thin leather would likely be usefull to hold broken boards together if glued in place on a replica, but I think other then looking good unless its pretty thick its not really going to add to any protective value, and in this case would add additional weight.

I shouldn't think too hard about it your never going to make a bullet proof boss without an enormous amount of effort and likely cost in both time and money, and its just not worth it for something that will eventually get destroyed no matter what you do, or even worse end up too heavy too use effectively.

Consider the types of weapons that your opponents are using I expect them to be blunt and not that heavy and most people will pull their blows....

The best thing is to go with is what you've got or just use mild steel, its cheap and works fairly easy and you should be able to make a boss that will work well enough from 16SWG. If your worried about getting it squashed on your hand (which I've never seen happen) glue some thick felt inside the boss making sure you have enough room of course, many early medieval reenactors used to use spun 18SWG bosses (or even thinner) they were cheap and stood up well enough.
Believe it or not there are people out there selling bosses made from 2mm stainless that weighs 1.5kg! for 100+ bucks I think they may actually be bullet proof...... not really something you need.

[Dan Howard]

Wood needs to be considerably thicker and heavier than bronze to provide similar levels of protection.

[Dan D'Silva]

Well, my idea isn't that the wood is going to provide the same level of protection, but more that it might bolster metal that's a bit thinner than ideal against deep, compromising dents.