Poll: What do you think of the current state of RAT?
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It is good as it is.
41.18%
7 41.18%
It needs to be reformed.
58.82%
10 58.82%
Total 17 vote(s) 100%
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Reviving Roman Army Talk
#16
(07-19-2021, 09:15 AM)Eleatic Guest Wrote: I don't know about the great Facebook exodus that has been referred to, but Facebook should not be a competitor due to its technical limitations that have been pointed out. Also, Facebook is more a thing for the older, first online generation. How many teenagers still register there? They are all now on Tiktok, Instagram and whatever. So, I feel we should be in principle able to outcompete Facebook, as long as we do our homework and broaden our scope.
Nothing about Facebook 'should' exist, but it is manifestly clear to me from experience that many kinds of geeky communities moved to Facebook in the 2010s, just like many bloggers drop off the open web within a year of opening a twitter account. There is also YouTube, but YT is very focused on individual brands, and its heavily subsidized by the surveillance-propaganda business.

I can't recall anything I saw on FB or birdsite (except a link to the open web) which was useful for a geeky interest, whereas I have turned things from the open web into two learned articles, one scholarly book draft, and counting.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#17
I'm also of the 'don't dilute the brand' school of thought.

If there were dozens of other historical discussion fora still thriving while RAT wallows then I might think otherwise, but as far as I know there are not. The problem is not with RAT or its approach, but with the changing fashions of the internet and how people interact with it.

Changing RAT into HAT (Historical Army Talk), for example, might draw in a bit more interest, but perhaps at the price of what made this forum unique in the first place.


(07-15-2021, 12:09 PM)Sean Manning Wrote: The really nasty period on RAT around 2012 drove a lot of us away.

Just based on volume of posts etc the heyday of RAT seems to have been about 2008-2012, so you might be right. But as I recall there was a big spam invasion soon after that which led to a change of boards and new sign-in requirements and security, and I think combined with the rise of the Facebook group around that same time a lot of old members didn't come back, and potential new ones preferred the easier FB approach.

But things change, and - who knows? - old-style internet fora might somehow stray back into retro-fashion one day!

In the meantime, we might think of RAT as being like one of the great monasteries of the early middle ages, patiently preserving the wisdom and learning of the past, while the world outside grows ever darker and more turbulent... [Image: wink.png][Image: tongue.png]
Nathan Ross
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#18
Substack is blogging with a different label! I suppose nobody told the people who gave them lots of Other People's Money that newsletters arriving in your mailbox were old in the 1930s.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#19
(07-19-2021, 07:53 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: I'm also of the 'don't dilute the brand' school of thought.

...

Changing RAT into HAT (Historical Army Talk), for example, might draw in a bit more interest, but perhaps at the price of what made this forum unique in the first place.

But what is the true, orthodox brand? Medieval warfare has already been covered by the publishers for years, remember. The question is rather why the Middle Ages have been kept out of the discussion here? To follow two separate timelines in print and online makes to me no sense, neither from an analytical nor economic perspective.
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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#20
Stefan, if you ever create a blog or a newsletter for your research on the eastern Romans let me know! As soon as I created my site I switched from arguing with people I did not respect to producing 500 to 1000 words of positive scholarly writing every week.

I miss many aspects of mailing lists and forums and academic blogs, but I don't know if they could be brought back and trying would require a group of people who can write a lot and promote themselves.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Reply
#21
That Tapatalk forum is the original (Ezboards at the time, I think) that we left in 2004 and seems to have been bought. I think I'm in theory an admin there, so let me see if I can at least point people here / turn that off
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#22
(07-21-2021, 09:12 AM)Praefectusclassis Wrote: That Tapatalk forum is the original (Ezboards at the time, I think) that we left in 2004 and seems to have been bought. I think I'm in theory an admin there, so let me see if I can at least point people here / turn that off

Yes that forum as well as likely hundreds of others were bought up by tapatalk (mobile based platform) when they bought up the forum provider a while ago, I think largely to boost their own membership numbers etc...

Would I trust them with my personal info... Hell No....

You may have problems though as old forum members end up being "transitioned" to a Tapatalk account...
Closing it would obviously be a better option at least it wouldn't appear on search results... hopefully.
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#23
Agreed. I’m not an admin on that forum though, so I’ve asked Rich to see what he can do.
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#24
Hello, everyone!  I'd come by to say hi on another thread -- and congrats on keeping this community going for two decades. 

Jasper mentioned there was an existential debate going on here, and invited me to offer my opinion as ex-officio 'Imperatrix' and founder... having missed all the intervening growth, drama and events since 2007 when I 'retired.'

Standalone forums like this will always serve a purpose that Facebook and other feed-driven, timeline-based social media never will -- and never could.

Here, what we do "echoes in eternity" -- or at least as long as Jasper and our colleagues see fit to pay for its hosting and keep it a well-tended garden, still growing -- even if at a slower rate than at inception (in the heady days of 2000's 'Gladiator' film, when hundreds if not thousands were inspired to join RAT to learn more about the 'lost world' of Rome).

In the beginning, I had only envisioned RAT as having interest to academics, to scholars looking to compare notes over archaeological or textual evidence.  I wanted to find a way to bridge the gap between the amateur Roman scholar (which I was) and the professional, degreed, tenured Roman scholar, because I saw that if the field was ever to grow it would need to stay relevant -- and if possible, to be global. 

At the time (2000) I was lucky enough to live in Europe and see with my own eyes what was left of Rome, but I knew that Roman enthusiasts were all over the world and I remembered how frustrated I had felt to know that an ocean divided me so thoroughly from them, from their remains and their museums and the universities where I might study them. 

So RomanArmyTalk, in its earliest incarnation, was simply an effort to bring people together to study and share what they knew about Rome, outside of the academic 'ivory tower' that not everyone who wished could enter.  I never imagined RAT would be popular, nor influential, let alone become a generational inspiration to undertake formal Classics studies.

The reenactors recruited in 2000 by Ridley Scott ;-) were responsible for most of RAT's phenomenal growth -- and I was quite unsure about it initially, as the sheer 'fanboyism' might be a turnoff to the kind of Serious Academics Big Grin  I was trying to attract. 

I needn't have worried so much, but there was definitely a bit of a culture-clash between those of us who considered ourselves 'academic' Romanists and those who wanted to BE Romans.  I tried to welcome everyone under a big tent philosophy, because I believed there was a place for reenactment -- I felt that practical, experimental archaeology (a la Marcus Junkelmann et al) had its own inherent value, and reenactors would be an important part of that.

Also, it seemed important to steer new reenactors toward the most accurate equipment, so providing a space for that knowledge-transfer to happen (mainly from veteran European reenactors to fresh, enthusiastic North American reenactors) quickly became co-equal to making a *dedicated* specialist space for theoretical, academic discussion.

But RAT was not a recreational reenactment forum at heart, but a specialized, thematically-sorted and searchable resource, one assembled collectively for study and research of the Roman world, with special focus on res militares.

And so it remains, and so (I think) it should remain.  Because RAT was never founded to be popular, let alone viral -- but to be useful, and to be enduring.

I was not a fan of creating a Facebook version of RAT, and although it wasn't my call at the time, I wouldn't have done it.  Because as we've since learned, Facebook can destroy whatever is created on its servers: without warning, without cause, without recourse. 

We don't own anything we post on Facebook -- and just as it was on Ezboard, we exist on FB only at the whim of the platform provider.  We cannot preserve, nor protect, what we put on third-party social media.  But as a standalone self-hosted forum, we can do that -- and more.

But RAT cannot be all things to all people.  To retain its value as a research resource and a topical discussion space, RAT must be centered on Rome, with a corollary inclusion of those cultures intrinsically relevant to the Roman era.  Trying to find Rome in a 'Historical Army Talk' would be too much work, a needle in a haystack of miles and millenia.

Besides, who wants to start all over again?  I haven't the passion for military history generally that I do for Rome, and I wouldn't imagine a generalist ethos is what motivates the admins or mod staff, either.

So I would suggest that we keep our content and philosophy very much as they have ever been -- thematic and well-moderated -- and if RAT's pure popularity has diminished somewhat against the competition of instant 'social' gratification, so be it!  That was not why RAT was founded, nor why it has retained its relevance, nor what will keep it alive for years to come.

There are now 20 years of scholarship recorded in these pages -- much of it amateur, but all of it inspirational.  If we want Roman Military Studies to survive in a world where Postmodern academic trends now threaten a wholescale abandonment of traditional Classics, RAT must continue its foundational purpose -- to be first a collection point of specialist knowledge to discuss and secondly a place for its knowledge-keepers to find community with the like-minded.

I hope this helps.  If we were to reform anything, I'd start with Facebook RAT -- which needs IMO to point here and only here.  Standalone RAT needs no competition with lookalikes. To that end, it may ultimately be necessary to inactivate RAT on Facebook, since it does outcompete the 'real RAT' on Google.

BTW, Jasper, Tapatalk posts do sometimes pop up in my old email account, so let's talk about pulling that legacy archictecture down in PM.  Not sure how to go about it, but it needs doing if Google search results for RAT are to be improved.  

~Jenny

P.S.  I would also add that I'm very touched by the comment that an entire generation of young Classics scholars have been inspired to enter academia because of RomanArmyTalk.  Thank you.  The creative effort was always worth it, but never more so than to know that what we've done here has changed lives.

I also appreciate the apt comparison with a medieval monastery -- our mission also being the growth of knowledge and the preservation of human heritage.

So very proud of you all!  Heart
Cheers,
Jenny
Founder, Roman Army Talk and RomanArmy.com

We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best we can find in our travels is an honest friend.
-- Robert Louis Stevenson
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#25
Very well said Jenny  Big Grin
Regards Brennivs   Big Grin
Woe Ye The Vanquished
                     Brennvs 390 BC
When you have all this why do you envy our mud huts
                     Caratacvs
Centvrio Princeps Brennivs COH I Dacorivm (Roma Antiqvia)
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#26
Hi Jenny,

I have a journal article in press which you and other RAT folks may be interested in as soon as I can share the link and create a thread.

Work on the forums and mailing lists and simple HTML-CSS-JPG-PDF websites is going to outlast anything on closed social media.

Sea
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Reply
#27
Simple?! ;-) Fingers crossed you're right!
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#28
(07-23-2021, 02:38 PM)JRSCline Wrote: If we were to reform anything, I'd start with Facebook RAT -- which needs IMO to point here and only here.  Standalone RAT needs no competition with lookalikes. 


Seconded. 

The fact that only 10 people voted on this question is also significant.

(07-23-2021, 02:38 PM)JRSCline Wrote: If we were to reform anything, I'd start with Facebook RAT -- which needs IMO to point here and only here.  Standalone RAT needs no competition with lookalikes. 


Seconded. 

The fact that only 10 people voted on this question is also significant.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#29
(07-26-2021, 09:20 AM)Robert Vermaat Wrote:
(07-23-2021, 02:38 PM)JRSCline Wrote: If we were to reform anything, I'd start with Facebook RAT -- which needs IMO to point here and only here.  Standalone RAT needs no competition with lookalikes. 


Seconded. 

The fact that only 10 people voted on this question is also significant.






Absolutely. It proves (sadly) that RAT is not frequented much anymore, to the point that not even discussions fundamental to the future of this board generate much user participation or interest. We all agree on the fact that the level of participation has been low for years, it is a quantifiable fact, the only question is whether we are content with this state or not.







(07-23-2021, 02:38 PM)JRSCline Wrote: If we want Roman Military Studies to survive in a world where Postmodern academic trends now threaten a wholescale abandonment of traditional Classics, RAT must continue its foundational purpose -- to be first a collection point of specialist knowledge to discuss and secondly a place for its knowledge-keepers to find community with the like-minded. 




Thanks for the fascinating insight into the early days of this forum, JRSClineHello. I wasn't aware there was life before Jasper. :-) It is good to encapsulate our knowledge in the face of the postmodern onslaught but I believe an even better response would be to expand our outreach to normies. After all, the saying goes it's not about guarding the ashes but keeping the flame alive.

Remember, after 20 years of existence a biological aspect also comes into play. Some of our most valuable members, the estimated Alanus comes to my mind but there were more of course, have left this life in the meantime and a big gap here. If we don't actively try to recruit new members, we will become a bit like medieval monks in the monasteries who preserved knowledge but failed to pass it on to a wider audience.


I believe this forum has the potential to integrate a new generation of users without the need to give up what is good about it.



But if widening the appeal means we are not anymore 'among ourselves', but may have also to deal with the kind of strong opinions that we can see on other (history) forums, so be it. There is always a price to be paid. The alternative is IMO to die a slow death here, because if there had been a turnaround, we would have seen it years ago.





That's all from my side for now. I think the pros and cons are all on the table. Best wishes.
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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#30
(07-26-2021, 09:20 AM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: The fact that only 10 people voted on this question is also significant.

I did not vote because neither of the options corresponds fully to my thoughts.  These are that the forum is basically OK but may require a slight tweaking.  I have suggested a sub-forum for Byzantine studies, for instance.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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