Romans carrying 17 days rations

[Mark Hygate]

I really didn't want to clutter up the stickied discussion with possible irrelevancies...

But it was pointed out that the quote that the soldiers "...carried their normal 17 days rations..." is a detail from the Historia Augusta.

Now, up until now, and supported by such things as Engel's '....Logistics of the Macedona Army' and studies of other soldiers and mules needs and carrying ability; I had been under the impression that something on the order of '3 days' was more normally carried.  It even includes knowing what I used to carry when on infantry training!

But 17 days seems an enormous quantity of food and forage for, say, a standard legionary carriage, even supported by just their 'intimate support mules' (ie the idea of 1 per contubernia for tent pieces, stakes, entrenching tools - let alone it's own forage - and perhaps 1 or two more for the centuriae as a whole) - and not counting any other additional mules like detailed in that 'movement of a cohort' study (that I can't immediately detail....) that calculated 225 more mules just to resupply for an additional 3 days.

In short - 17 days food and fodder is an enormous weight.  How could a soldier carry it - when he's always got some 60lbs of other things...?

[Nathan Ross]

17 days food and fodder is an enormous weight.  How could a soldier carry it - when he's always got some 60lbs of other things...?

Vegetius (1.19) has Roman troops trained to carry 60 pounds (modern 43lbs), in addition to their arms. What this load would have comprised is up for debate. One day's ration would be about 1-1.3kg (2.5-2.8lbs) per man (as per Roth, Logistics of the Roman Army at War).

Here are the quotes in question, for discussion purposes:

Ammianus Marcellinus 17.8.2: “[Julian] had the grain allowance for twenty days taken from what was to be consumed in the winter quarters, and baked up to serve for some time; he put this hard-tack (as they commonly call it) on the backs of his willing soldiers…"

(Then some time later):
 
Ammianus Marcellinus 17.9.1: "he planned to repair (as time would permit) three forts situated in a straight line along the banks overhanging the river Meuse [and so] he took a part of the seventeen days' provisions, which the soldiers, when they marched forward on their expedition carried about their necks, and stored it in those same forts, hoping that what had been deducted might be replaced from the harvests of the Chamavi."

Historia Augusta, Alexander Severus, 2.47.1: "During his campaigns he [Alexander Sev] made such careful provision for the soldiers that they were furnished with supplies at each halting-place and were never compelled to carry food for the usual period of seventeen days, except in the enemy's country. And even then he lightened their burdens by using mules and camels..."

Cicero, Tusculan Disputations, II.17:"how great the labor is of an army on its march... consider that they carry more than a fortnight’s provision, and whatever else they may want; that they carry the burden of the stakes, for as to shield, sword, or helmet, they look on them as no more encumbrance than their own limbs."

Caesar, Bellum Civ 1.78: [Caesar's legionaries] "had been ordered to bring a twenty-two days' supply [of grain] from Ilerda; the light-armed and auxiliaries had none, since... their bodies were not trained to carry burdens."

[Hanny]

Roman ration weighed 2.2 lbs, 2 sextari is 1.87lbs is wheat in a sack to be ground into flour for bread ( bread goes moldy after 5 days or so so was seldom prepared before hand) or used in morning porridge, 50 grams beans, 20grams cheese, oil, 40 grams and 30 grams salt. plus your Posca, which was a third wine, vinegar, vinegar changes how carbs are released in teh body, it slows it down so get get a sustain output over time, the rest water. This was supplemented by locally procured meat, salted pork, mutton etc so not carried.

Rations for 30 days, called frumentum, was carried in the army baggage train, when grain was carried by the legions was was called impediti, arrived at the Army on or as near to the first of the month as the Senate had to pay/re imburse its purchase.

The 17 day ration mentioned is most likely bucceltum, and the grain ration only, not anything else, which is double backed bread ration ie all the moisture is baked out so it keeps for a long time, think hard tack, same amount of grain goes in but much less comes out*and is a compacted ration, no one knows if it had a standard size prob because it all depends on the heat from the ovens used to double cook it, to low and you get poison in the hard tack and people die, 500 in a single case before it was identified ina siege i referenced earlier but later in the book, to high it compacts to much and yields a smaller biscuit, and you do it from your grain ration over a camp fire just not as safely as in an oven, to grind the wheat and cook it into bread isover 2 hours work to get fresh bread for teh day,but it will lower its weight.

17 days of double backed bread add c34 lbs.

Mil law of the 300s provided that "buccellatum ac panem, vinum quoque atque acetum,
sed et laridum, carnem verbecinam." which is hard tack, bread, wine, bacon and mutton, you got hardtack 2 days out of 3, the other day bread you had to make yourself.

Wheat was measure by artaba, from which you then get your ration weight, again there are several artaba.
https://archive.nyu.edu/bitstream/2451/2...Loaves.pdf

* each 87lbs of grain wheat when baked returns, 80lbs of hard tack, so double backing your 30 day ration delivered at start of the month, reduces the weight of your grain by roughly that amount, since your going to carry it, having it weigh less is good, but its not like having fresh bread.

So a legion in camp waiting for campaign to start, gets each day from the grain stores 5000 men*1.87lbs =9350lbs of wheat in sacks, it can then turn it into hard tack, to make transport easier, and lose c10% of its weight. There are references to legions loseing weight during campaign, and getting lean, we know the calorie intake of hard tack on its own, hell teh basic ration is not great for that matter, is not enough to replace what you burn.

See also https://www.researchgate.net/publication...century_AD

[Nathan Ross]

knowing what I used to carry when on infantry training!

This UK Government paper provides some stats on the loads carried by soldiers in the modern era, which might be useful in establishing the boundaries of the possible:

The Soldier's Load: Historical Data.

Some of the burdens are quite amazing; the brigade carrying 95lbs in the tropics, for example, or the poor guy in the Falklands lugging 146lbs

But training seems the important thing. No modern troops are trained specifically to march long distances under heavy loads like the Roman army were.

[Hanny]

http://www.legioxxirapax.com/zasoby/The_...5AD%29.pdf

Pages 64/66.


19. Recruits should be trained in carrying a burden. Recruits should very frequently be made to carry a burden of up to 60 lb.4 and route-march at the military step, since on arduous campaigns they have necessarily to carry their rations together with their arms.’

Two ways to read that, 60lbs is in addittion to arms, or the arms and rations add up to 60lbs. So either 60lbs or 15lbs as rations.

https://questionbank.wjec.co.uk/qualific...guage_id=1
Source 3: Training recruits to march with rations and equipment
About this source:
• The normal marching speed was 20 miles in 5 hours.
• The legionary carried 3 days’ supply of corn, the staple diet.
• His weapons were a sword, a javelin (pilum) and a shield.
• He also carried equipment for making a temporary camp at the end of the day.

[Hanny]

Ammianus Marcellinus 17.8.2: "[Julian] had the grain allowance for twenty days taken from what was to be consumed in the winter quarters, and baked up to serve for some time; he put this hard-tack (as they commonly call it) on the backs of his willing soldiers..."

Context for quote.
This is not a use of normal marching rations, it refers to setting out for a two month campaign, before the usual campaign season, so no crops in the fields are ripe, fodder also would be in short supply, instead soldiers carry 20 days rations, prob baked into hard tack, to bridge the temporal period between when the general wants to begin his campaign and when the allied crop lands he excepts to maneuver through allow him to use those crops and now available fodder. It all goes wrong ending in a mutiny.



Historia Augusta, Alexander Severus, 2.47.1: "During his campaigns he [Alexander Sev] made such careful provision for the soldiers that they were furnished with supplies at each halting-place and were never compelled to carry food for the usual period of seventeen days, except in the enemy's country. And even then he lightened their burdens by using mules and camels..."

Context for quote.
"From the sixth century to the end of the 19th century, historians had recognized that the Historia Augusta was a flawed and not a particularly reliable source, and since the 20th century modern scholars have tended to treat it with extreme caution." this is the generally held view of the book, in this case one author is using the first author as his source so its actually the same event being reported.


Cicero, Tusculan Disputations, II.17:"how great the labor is of an army on its march... Consider that they carry more than a fortnight's provision, and whatever else they may want; that they carry the burden of the stakes, for as to shield, sword, or helmet, they look on them as no more encumbrance than their own limbs."

Context. Cicero uses cibaria, that is other rations excluding the grain ration.
An Army includes its baggage train, and starts out with months provisions, so he was half right as the Army carries twice what he thinks.


Caesar, Bellum Civ 1.78: [Caesar's legionaries] "had been ordered to bring a twenty-two days' supply [of grain] from Ilerda; the light-armed and auxiliaries had none, since... their bodies were not trained to carry burdens."

Context no its not Caesers legionaries, its his opponents legionaries who began in May with 22 days of grain rations and have run out in July of all rations, and not been resupplied.

Context.
Clearly then no Roman Army that has Aux can march 18mpd and have Aux with them at the end of the march, as the Aux are neither trained to do so, nor logistically supplied to do so as they must make other arangments.
This is the ilerda campaign from 2 May to July, Ilerda was Afranius base of supply, and he left it with 22 days grain rations and ended the campaign by being starved into surrender.

http://faculty.fairfield.edu/rosivach/cl...v.war1.htm
[1.72]Caesar had conceived hopes of ending the affair without an engagement, or without striking a blow, because he had cut off the enemy's supplies.

[1.73]The day following, the generals of his opponents, being alarmed that they had lost all prospect of supplies, and of access to the Ebro, consulted as to what other course they should take. There were two roads, one to Ilerda, if they chose to return, the other to Tarraco, if they should march to it.

[1.78]Afranius's men were distressed in foraging, and procured water with difficulty. The legionary soldiers had a tolerable supply of corn, because they had been ordered to bring from Ilerda sufficient to last twenty-two days; the Spanish and auxiliary forces had none, for they had but few opportunities of procuring any, and their bodies were not accustomed to bear burdens; and therefore a great number of them came over to Caesar every day. Their affairs were under these difficulties; but of the two schemes proposed, the most expedient seemed to be to return to Ilerda, because they had left some corn there; and there they hoped to decide on a plan for their future conduct. Tarraco lay at a greater distance; and in such a space they knew affairs might admit of many changes. Their design having met with approbation, they set out from their camp. Caesar having sent forward his cavalry, to annoy and retard their rear, followed close after with his legions. Not a moment passed in which their rear was not engaged with our horse.

[1.81]Then indeed, not having opportunity either to choose a convenient position for their camp, or to march forward, they were obliged to halt, and to encamp at a distance from water, and on ground naturally unfavorable. /Snip/
Hereupon, urged by want of fodder, that they might be the readier for a march, they killed all their baggage cattle.

[1.84]At length, beset on all sides, their cattle having been four days without fodder, and having no water, wood, or corn, they beg a conference; and that, if possible, in a place remote from the soldiers.

[1.87]Caesar promised to supply them with corn from the present time till they arrived at the river Var.

He had 5 legions to surrender, so if they start at full strength, 25000*2.2*22= 1210000lbs
Legions carry 15 lbs each 375000lb
Legion non coms carry 6000*30= 180000, total 555000lbs, leaving mules to carry, 655000lbs, so tahst 3000 mules, 600 fully laden mules a legion.

When allies are told to supply provision, its for a range of numbers but never greater than 30 days.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text...026:book=9
After having been most kindly and hospitably received, he was requested to inform the Romans that thirty days' provision would be ready for them if they came into that district, and the Camertine soldiery would he prepared to act under their orders.

---

In short - 17 days food and fodder is an enormous weight.  How could a soldier carry it - when he's always got some 60lbs of other things...?

If its hard tack not so much, but if its all rations then its impossible and has ben to be so for some time.

See pages 446
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ukXa...vy&f=false

[Nathan Ross]

Cicero led a Roman military campaign himself, in Cilicia, so we should accept that he (and Ammianus too) knew more about the Roman army than we do!

The phrase he uses  - ferre plus dimidiati mensis cibaria - means 'they carry over half a month's food'. Cibaria was used often by Roman writers to refer to the army ration as whole; Roth (p.25) says "indeed this seems to be its primary meaning." (and it would be a bit pointless to carry only meat, cheese, oil etc and no grain or bread...)

The problem with assuming that Vegetius's 60 Roman pounds included the soldier's weapons and armour would be that 43lbs is lighter than the marching load of most soldiers even today. But V implies that the load is very heavy, and quotes Virgil saying that the Roman soldier marches 'cruelly laden'; Tacitus (Annals 1.20) refers to the immensa onera (immense burden) carried by the legions.

Delbruck's suggestion that a seventeen-day (or over-half-a-month, rounded up) ration was issued to the soldiers, and it was up to them how they transported it seems reasonable. The main point is that, if required, Roman troops could march for seventeen days or so carrying their own provisions without requiring wagons or needing to be resupplied.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

"laridum"

This isn't bacon, it's "Fatback." Pork fat from the back of the pig.

"The problem with assuming that Vegetius's 60 Roman pounds included the soldier's weapons and armour would be that 43lbs is lighter than the marching load of most soldiers even today."

It has to be separate from the weapons and armor. A properly made maille hauberk is around 13 lbs and a properly made shield around 9 lbs. A properly made helmet is around 4lbs tops, sword and scabbard around 2 lbs tops. Already you've eaten into half of that number.