ISKANDER or SIKANDER?

[Dan Diffendale]

It's usually spelled 'Tocharian' in English. There are two Tocharian languages known from manuscripts, imaginatively called today 'Tocharian A' and 'Tocharian B'. They are from the Indo-European family, but seem to have branched off from the Indo-European core at an early period.

This is a good source for the alphabet and history:
[url:mdruwuw1]http://www.omniglot.com/writing/tocharian.htm[/url]
[url:mdruwuw1]http://www.oxuscom.com/eyawtkat.htm[/url]

Not sure about the Kalas yet...

[Anonymous]

I must say I'm impressed with the amount you chaps have discovered. The Chinese would be very buttoned-up about this story, it rather contradicts their attitude that they are superior to all "foreign devils" and have the oldest and greatest civilization in the world, independent of other cultures. Not that I would wish to detract from China's achievements.

[Robert Vermaat]

This knowledge has been discussed for quite some time. The discovery of the first Tocarian documents dates to the 1890s. I remember reading about the Tocharian language at least 20 years ago. The mummies are a relatively new thing, and the Chines have great difficulty in 'acknowledging' the ethnic background of these folks. Mind you, some Caucasian mummies date back to at least 1000BC, while the Tocharian language might be much younger. As the Tocharians began to move east, the last contacts that they had with other Indo-Europeans (before their much later interaction with the Indians and Iranians) was with the Slavs.

Ethnicity and language don't go hand in hand, and an Indo-European language may have been spoken by ethnic Asians, or likewise, Asian-looking people might just as easily in some parts have spoken a language that would be recognised by Celts. Be careful not to mix up these two.

More Chines art of Caucasian folk:

[url:9mpjqtm1]http://www.answers.com/topic/tocharians[/url]

The Tocharian mummies:
[url:9mpjqtm1]http://geography.berkeley.edu:16080/ProgramCourses/CoursePagesFA2002/geog148/Lectures/Lecture21/tocharians/mummies.html[/url]

Tocharian languages:
[url:9mpjqtm1]http://www.biologydaily.com/biology/Tocharian_languages[/url]

Tocharian alphabet:
[url:9mpjqtm1]http://www.omniglot.com/writing/tocharian.htm[/url]

More Tocharian alphabet:
[url:9mpjqtm1]http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/idg/toch/tochbr.htm[/url]

Tocharian vocabulary (from the Indo-Eurpean website):
[url:9mpjqtm1]http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/toch.htm[/url]

Everything You Always Wanted to Know about Tocharian
(but were afraid to ask):
[url:9mpjqtm1]http://www.oxuscom.com/eyawtkat.htm[/url]

[hoplite14gr]

Thanks very much Dan and Robert.
What a well of information! I observed that some Tocharian words are very close to ancient Greek:
A tre, B trai 'three': *trei- Greek -> TRIA
A okät, B okt 'eight': *okto Greek -> OKTO
A päñ, B pis 'five': *penkwe Greek -> PENTE
A rtär, B ratre 'red': *reudh- Greek -> ERITHROS
ámpi - both (IE *ambh- + *bhó - both) Greek -> AMPHI
ásta - bones (IE *kost-, *ost- - a bone) Greek OSTO (sin) OSTA (pl)
The word of dog Ku is like in Celtic but in ancient Greek is also KYON

I think the comment about language and ethnicity has weight and I recall Swiss and Germans who share a language but they consider themselves different but some languages are uniquely identified with some nations.

In all cultures legitimacy and inheritance are traced in the depth of time, that is why people tend to be "buttoned up" about "inconvenient" past.
I think in USA there was the Kennewick Man affair.

As for the Kalas there are some people here in Greece that set up a volunteers club and they try to aid them but it is a non profit non government agency with limited resources.
The only international mention the Kalas got is when the National Geographic spoke about them in the issue about Afghanistan.
They are not mentioned but they seem to be the background in the film "the man who would be King" with Shaun Connery.
Kind regards and thanks again for the links
GIRASKO AEI DIDASOMENOS

P.S. link in english about Kalas
http://tftb.com/deify/kalaspics.htm
http://tftb.com/deify/kalas.htm

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the information. The TV programme which I saw,concerning caucasoid peoples in China, portrayed it as a "scoop" - something really new. This is very common in historical programmes. I have to thank the programme makers, however, because, without them, I might never have heard of this!

[Robert Vermaat]

Massagetae, then with names that clearly sound like the Goths

I doubt that the Massagetae had anything to do with the Goths. Sure, the names vaguely sound alike, but that's about it. The Massagetae were a steppe people from Transoxania, now the Central Asian region, mostly covered by Kazachstan. The Massagetae used heavy cavalry and were famous for it.

The Goths, on the other hand, have their origins in the Baltic region, from which they slowly migrated to the south. There is nothing that can link both peoples.

[hoplite14gr]

I think I will agree with Robert.
The Goths possible come from the Baltic or North Scandinavia.
I feel that the names Gotland & Vestgotta in Sweden might have connection to that.
Just a comment Thyssagetae means "hunting Getae" or "Getae hunters"
Kind regards
Stefanos

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Comerus.
Well, of course you are free to completely disbelieve all the findings of archaeological and linguistical science so far, though I can't see on what grounds you would do so. Needless to say your explanations don't convince me.
On the other hand, I've fought many a battle with a linguist who thought that a theory was the same as the historical truth! hock:

The mistake that you are making with comparing Goths to Massagetae is that you are using the wrong name. The Goths called themselve Goth (well, up to a point, but at some point they at least started doing so), but the name 'Massagetae' was not their indiginous name, but the Greek version first used by Herodotus. We don't have the original of his 'translation', but gives the usual way in which Greeks rendered Persian and similar names, we may assume it was not exactly the same.
This group was most probably known as 'Saka'. The Persian name for them was 'Saka Tigrakhauda', some say they were the same as the 'Saka Homavarka'.

The often heard explanations that 'Massa-' would mean 'great' in either Old Iranian or Pahlavi (or that 'ma' was from the Sanskrit 'maha' ('big') can't be supported by any language study of the said languages. The correct word in Pahlavi would be s*g, but that's to do with quantaty - many. 'mah' would mean 'moon', and anyway both are too late for Herodotus. It does not exist in Old Iranian. Possibly, someone thought that 'massa' in Latin would probably mean the same in other Indo-Iranian languages.

The best I can do to see an Achaemenid origin of 'Massagetae' would be Saka Homavarka, rendered as (Ho)ma(varka) saka[tae] to get Masage[toi] or something.

At any rate, it is clear that no direct link can be established between the Goths. The name is not the same, and apart from that, the groups lived in different part of the world, seperated also by two or more centuries of time.

[hoplite14gr]

Your comments are intersting Gendlemen.
I do not claim to hold the eternal truth.
I commented that Thyssagetae might be Hunting or Hunter Getae
because in very ancient Greek the word goes like:
TH pronounced like TH in THOR represented by an on O with a horizontal line in the middle. In ancient Greek engavings appears as a "Celtic" cross.
So THEO is "to run" or "to spin" THISSO is "to hunt" or "to run arround".
The sound TH is appearing in the north European languages and is written with the "thorn" rune like "|>".
I am more inclined to belive that Getae might be closer to Skythians rather than Goths. Of course archaeology might prove me wrong.
There seems to be enough evidence that the Tocharians if not giving the kick start to Chinese civilization they certainly influenced it very much perhaps more than the Chinese would like to admit.
After some study I start come to the conclusion that the term Aryans is atributed to people that they first dealt with farming. The word or root AR in many ancient languages describes the wooden tool initally used to plough the soil. The people using it grew food and perhaps they developed their martial skills to defend their land and crops.
That is why they are described as warlike.
They first were clans, then they devopled into tribes and races and it is possible that the root of the proto dialect became the backbone of the languages evolved by each population grouping.
In Greek from the root AR we get:
ARISTOS: The one who excells (The first successful farmer perhaps)
ARISTIA: Exelence in battle at homeric times.
ARISTOKRATIS: Strongest of the ARISTOI - The leader
ARO: to drug ARIS-God of war the one who drugs the armies behind him.
I am sure that other memebers can give us examples in their respective languages.
I think I will also agree with Robert's comment that linguistics are not a panakea when you describe people and peoples names.
The examples that I recall are:
Us Greeks that we call ourselves ELLINES
Germans that call themselves DEUTCH academically they are described as TEUTONS. Finns call themselves SUOMI and the list might be interminable.
Kind regards

[Robert Vermaat]

I am more inclined to belive that Getae might be closer to Skythians rather than Goths. Of course archaeology might prove me wrong.

I think you might find that archaeology has already found plenty of evidence to point to an origin for the Saka that's very close to that of the Scythians and similar steppe nomads.

I commented that Thyssagetae might be Hunting or Hunter Getae
because in very ancient Greek the word goes

I'm sure that some commentators also looked for a connection between the languages. But from what I read, there's no real evidence of what language the 'massagetae' spoke, or how much we could compare that to Greek. But then, the word 'massagetae' is of course from a Greek source, and most probably a Greek rendering of a different original.

After some study I start come to the conclusion that the term Aryans is atributed to people that they first dealt with farming.

yes, that's the theory of Colin Renfrew, one of the arch-fathers of the Indo-European language studies. Others are opposed to that view and see the Proto-Indo-Europeans as semi-nomadic.

The people using it grew food and perhaps they developed their martial skills to defend their land and crops. That is why they are described as warlike.

Thinking about that, I would say the opposite - the farmers are the defenders, while the semi-nomads are the warring raiders. Is it not so that most warring tribes become less warlike when they are starting to settle down and become more like farmers?

[hoplite14gr]

Robert unless I gave the wrong impression I did not doubt that the Saka are Skythians, I said only I was not sure about the Getae.
Since I do not know Farsi I did not question the "Massa" word.
"Massa" in Greek in not related with "Great". It has to do with eating food.
I only gave my thoughts on what "Thyssa-Getae" might mean to ancient Greeks not that these people spoke Greek.
Almost all people start as nomadic and semi-nomadic so IndoEuropeans are no exception.
I agree that farmers are the defenders and very fierce I might add because if you lost your livelihood you are very dead!
If you are a nomad "live to fight another day, you might find easier pickings on your way!". You can always move to the next objective.

I checked the link Comerus. Thanks. It supports the fact that Saka are Skythians and that the Getae are Skythians too.
Kind regards
Stefanos

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Comerus.

I'm not surprised. Julius Von Klaproth lived 1783-1835, long before archaeology was invented and linguistics wasn't even a science.

His writings are interesting for a study of the level of knowledge during the early 19th century, or how he used the availbale sources then.

But there it stops. For a scientific discussion about the culture and language of the Goths and the Massagetae, Klaproth's writings are unusable. :!:

[hoplite14gr]

Hello Comerus, you seem to have a talent for writing!
That paragraph was very intersting.
I agree preference is preference but even the settled people were or became restless and adventurus. Mediteraneans were quite adveturous too I think.
Sea Peoples, Geomtric Greeks, Romans just to name a few.
But I agree the galloping Skythian horse archer brinks dreams of absolute freedom.
Kind regards
Stefanos

[hoplite14gr]

Do not worry about your English. All non native speakers of a tongue have this problem.
Your posting prompted many members to post useful links and I learned a lot from them. That is positive.
I avoid philosophical and political comments because there are forums specificaly for them. Here is a forum for learning!
Your friend's name Pallas probably means "the one moving his spear menancingly" so I do NOT advise you to call him Pallavos=crazy!

As for the throne of Greece after king Kodros sacrifised himself to save his country and prompted the rise of democrasy a cursed legasy hung over the thrones of Greece. No one who sat there felt OK!
In history there have been people nobler than Kings.

I comment you for your effort to learn Greek. You have only to master the syntax. It is more easier than it looks, after all we had more than 3000 years to perfect it!!
And yes it is true Greeks are homesick when abroad!
Remember Odyssy is an epic about nostalgia and homesickness!

Keep you spirits up!
Stefanos

[hoplite14gr]

Congratulations may the baby healthy and lucky!
Kind regards
Stefanos