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08-10-2003, 02:32 PM

Saw a picture in the newspaper today of Mel Gibson's controversial movie about the last 12 hours of Christ, "The Passion." The pic is small, black-and-white and poor resolution, but I could make out one soldier in the background who appears to be holding a weighted pilum. His helmet looks vaguely Imperial Italic or maybe Gallic, but couldn't make out any details of armor, or even if he was wearing any.

08-10-2003, 10:23 PM

There are two trailers floating around on the internet right now that are nothing less than superb. Unfortunately, the site I got them both from has since taken them down since their servers were getting overloaded, but you might be able to find them on Kazaa or through Google. 
 
It might be important to note that Mel is telling the *religious* story of Christ, so historical details might be a bit off. For example, he is portraying Christ with stakes through the hands, even though that's since been proven physically impossible since they wouldn't be able to support the weight of the body, but that's not what the Bible and all the religious iconography tells us. It makes perfect sense to me, but others might be annoyed by such a thing. 
 
And, of course, I'm sure everyone's aware how every line is being spoken in either Latin or Aramaic -- and Mel doesn't want any subtitles whatsoever.

Jeroen Pelgrom · 08-11-2003, 06:29 AM

i heard somewhere that the "nails in the hands" story can be correct afterall. Remember those guys in the Philippines who let themselves to be crucified every Easter. They get their nails also in the hand, not the wrist. 
 
Must be said that only 1 crucified body has been found.

Nathan Ross · 08-11-2003, 09:40 AM

All I could find was this - 
 
www.themoviebox.net/trail...r_page.htm 
 
...none of the trailer links seem to work though. As for the 'authentic' soldiers - hmm... Looks like the old brown leather segmentata again - what is it with 'Movie Romans' and brown leather? Helmets seem reasonable, but hardly early 1st century - more late second by the looks of things. All of which seems a bit of a shame, when it wouldn't have taken much to get it right, surely (endlessly repeated lament) 
 
On crucifixion - Tertullian mentions Jesus being nailed to the cross, which as he was writing in the third century and quite possibly would have seen actual crucifixions happening (or would have been aware of the mechanics) I would say is reasonable proof. As far as I'm aware, the weight of the body was not fully supported on the hands, the nails/ropes/whatever being used to hold the arms upright and increase the strain on the chest and neck.

Jeroen Pelgrom · 08-11-2003, 10:31 AM

Yes, the leather, *sigh* 
 
I think i saw the crucifiction thing on tv sometimes. A lot of the body is supported by the legs/ feet. The person is more standing then hanging. Futhermore, a crucified person will die from lack of water and/ or suffocation (the position causes the chest to go up (like when you hold your breath).

Nathan Ross · 08-12-2003, 04:19 PM

Oddly, I think the most accurate portrayal of Roman soldiery in a biblical film was in a clay animation version of the New Testament - can't remember the title, but it was shown in the Uk around Easter I think - as I recall, it had auxiliaries in lorica hamata with oval shields and bronze helmets - then again, my memory might be at fault... 
 
Then again, there's always Lego: 
 
www.thereverend.com/brick...27p29.html

08-12-2003, 06:21 PM

Of course! The clay movie was called "The Miracle Maker: the Story of Jesus". I've got it on DVD... Good movie in my opinion... It was a BBC production. <img src="http://www.wcnet.org/~mjmarsh/IHSVEZsig.gif" style="border:0;"/> In Hoc Signo Vinces <img src="http://www.wcnet.org/~mjmarsh/IHSVEZsig.gif" style="border:0;"/>

Sassanid · 08-13-2003, 12:04 AM

My group, "Cohors Quinta Gallorum" recently were involved in a BBC production about Christianity coming to Britain. Should be out in November or December this year. 
 
Our equipment is early to mid 3rd century so we won't be too far off the mark. 
 
Regards 
 
Sassanid Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sassanid@romanarmytalk>Sassanid</A> at: 8/13/03 2:06 am

**Robert Vermaat** · 08-13-2003, 10:56 AM

As I seem to remember it, the nails/stakes would goes to the stretched feet, so that the crucified persons would not stand on their soles, but on the front of the bones in the foot. Similarly, a nail/stake would go through the the hand, causing it it seize up in a fist. Of course, this could be done with the writs as well, for hitting the right muscle cause do the same effect. 
The body would then alternatively 'stand' on the feet, for a short time because of the immense pain, then 'hang' on the hands until that would become unbearable as well. Image the torture.. 
 
As an aside, this is what I heard was the reason that until recently, Italians did not 'do' Roman re-enacting - because it was the Roman who crucified Christ... 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

08-13-2003, 11:23 AM

Hi, 
 
after the Passion it will become obvious to all that it was the English who crucified Christ !! The Italiens can stop worrying. 
 
Alan Rickman as Pilot ? 
 
Conal

Frank Miranda · 08-14-2003, 05:01 AM

Quote:<hr>Alan Rickman as Pilot ?<hr> 
 
The Romans had planes? (Oh, wait, that was in another thread somewhere!)

FlaviusCrispus · 08-14-2003, 04:25 PM

After viewing the trailer, a few thoughts spring to mind--- 
 
(1) The cuirasses worn by the legionaries appear to be copied straight off Trajan's column-- i.e. the shoulder plates have rounded ends with big studs in them. The material, I think, is supposed to be blued or forge-blackened iron. It's black, not brown like leather, and it seems pretty rigid, not flexing the way leather would (of course it's probably plastic!). 
 
(2) The helmets look like Italic Ds without the fancy decoration. The Italic D is a lter first century helmet, but it's not impossible a similar form could have been in use in Christ's time. Just very unlikely. 
 
(3) The rusty brown color of the tunics looks plausible enough. But the troops are wearing what look like leather braccae. Why would anyone wear braccae in Judaean heat? Perhaps to spare the Jews from looking at hairy white thighs? 
 
(4) Other tidbits -- i.e. shields, belts and aprons, weapons, etc. look pretty good, for Hollywood. But all of the above is kind of irrelevent, because... 
 
(5) The Roman garrison of Jerusalem would have really been composed of auxiliaries, with totally different gear. 
 
(6) Christ is carrying the whole cross, instead of just the crossbeam, as he should be. 
 
(7) Pontius Pilate, with a very un-Roman shaved head, looks like the lead singer for Smashing Pumpkins. 
 
( Pilate pronounces "ecce homo" as "et-chay homo," using modern ecclesiastical Latin, instead of the properly period "eckay homo" pronunciation. 
 
None of the above would have been that big a deal, except that Gibson & co. have been promoting this as THE most accurate portrayal of Christ's passion ever attempted. Heck, they even used the original languages with no subtitles! 
 
Too bad. A phone call or email to any reenactment group would have turned up lots of properly kitted Romans eager to help. Looks like another missed opportunity. 
 
T, Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis 
California, USA

08-15-2003, 12:46 AM

Ok Flavius - do you know when the Romans began using rectangular shields? I know they were in use by AD14, but I'd assumed ol' Julius would not have used the oval ones, though I have a worryingly realistic looking print of him carrying a bloody great stretched oval, which worries me, frankly. 
 
Any information always appreciated. 
 
Conn

08-15-2003, 01:48 PM

The date of changeover from oval to semi-oval to rectangular scuta is much debated and there could have been a great deal of overlap. The earliest use of rectangular scuta is unknown. A relief of two odd-looking gladiators (bustuarii, actually, since they are depicted in a funeral scene) dating from around 100 BC shows them using rectangular scuta with the central spina of the oval shield. This may have been a strictly gladiatorial type at the time, but who knows? Most think the semi-oval type came in during Augustan times and the rectangle a generation or two later, but again this is guesswork.

FlaviusCrispus · 08-15-2003, 07:05 PM

<<Ok Flavius - do you know when the Romans began using rectangular shields? I know they were in use by AD14, but I'd assumed ol' Julius would not have used the oval ones, though I have a worryingly realistic looking print of him carrying a bloody great stretched oval, which worries me, frankly. 
 
Any information always appreciated. 
 
Conn>> 
 
Avete, Conn et John (Maddox Roberts): 
 
Connolly proposed that the "clipped" Republican scutum (squared-off top and bottom, curved sides, often described as "Augustan") first came in during Marius' time, perhaps due to his reform in making legionaries pack around their own gear. The clipped shield is much easier to lug around on the march than the full-length Fayum-style scutum. Most others seem to think the change came much later; John Warry, in "Warefare in the Classical World," proposes that the clipped shield with a spindle-shaped boss came in around 10 BC, the same with a round boss around AD 20, the rectangular Trajan's Column-style shield around AD 40-50, and posits a reversion to a flat or dished oval clippus ca. AD 150. The new book "Weapons of the Romans" questions whether the rectangular shield was ever really much in use, except perhaps by specialist divisions expert at forming the testudo. This seems to follow Dr. Caroline Driel-Murray's theories, which are based on her excavations of Roman auxiliary forts. It's a bit of a hodge-podge of opinion at present, but that's the way it stands at present. 
 
The Praetorians seem to have persisted in using the full-length Republican scutum (they presumably didn't do much marching in full kit). Perhaps senior officers, who didn't have to lug around a shield on the march, might have done the same-- hence, your print of Julius Caesar holding a big Republican oval (he's shown doing just this in Graham Sumner's "Roman Military Clothing Vol. I") might be quite accurate. 
 
Hope this helps! 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis 
California, USA

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