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New Mel Gibson Christ movie
#16
Feel a bit of a fool addressing someone as Flavius, but thank you both for the responses. I do try not to give critics extra sticks to beat me with and this is more than I knew.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Conn <p></p><i></i>
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#17
Hello folks<br>
<br>
Interesting thread, it seems that when this film comes out it will be a hotly debated potato on this forum.<br>
<br>
I would suggest that one of you might want to start a thread using the above in the reenactment and reconstruction section to discuss shield migrations and lorica types ... it might be being missed in the slightly less frequently visited References and reviews forum ...<br>
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All the best <p>Graham Ashford
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#18
One question...would Roman troops on garrison duty, even in violent Judea, even wear full kit armor to carry out executions/floggings. My impression is that body armor would only be worn for impending combat. Also, several "interesting" websites on crucifixion seem to conclude that Jesus most likely died on a seven foot Tau cross with His wrists, not hands, nailed; the wrist was evidently equated to the hand by the ancients. He indeed would only have carried the cross beam to the execution site where a permanent set of posts would have been erected. Nailing to the wrists would have caused more agony due to the various major nerve networks in that area, which would radiate enormous waves of pain. <br>
<br>
www.konnections.com/Kcund...cifix.html<br>
www.crucifixion-1.com/<br>
en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cr...The_Romans<br>
<br>
I am new to this great forum so please don't crucify me! The impression is that Gibson wants to get it right, but like most Hollywood types he can't. However, from the trailers, this seems to be the most realistic cinematic depiction of Christ's death on the Cross we may see.<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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#19
What matters to me is the story and how it is presented, not whether the color of the third pin down on the lorica segmentata is green or brown. =p<br>
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Art departments have to make sacrifices in order to get their props and costumes out in time. They certainly don't have the money to make suits of armor made out of real metal (remember this isn't a 300 million dollar movie like Lord of the Rings), nor can they each spend the years of research necessary to get every little detail correct. Though one would wish they had hired a historical consultant to correct small mistakes, I could honestly care less since it's a movie first and foremost -- designed above all to tell a story and to *look good.* It certainly isn't a documentary nor does it pretend to be. Gibson's Braveheart was anything but historically accurate, yet it was still one of the best *movies* of the past ten years. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hottoq>hottoq</A> at: 12/4/03 1:59 am<br></i>
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#20
I hear they may add subtitles to the movie now... <p></p><i></i>
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#21
They already have. It comes out on Feb 25th. <p></p><i></i>
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#22
Tom,<br>
<br>
The problem with puting Jesus on a 'Tau' or 'St. Anthony's' Cross is that, according to John's Gospel, a sign bearing the words 'Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews' was fixed on the cross on Pilate's orders. Traditionally this has been interpreted as being above Jesus' head - which is why the cross is usually portrayed as having a headpiece, so there is something to fix the sign to. <p></p><i></i>
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#23
As I (finally) saw RotK, I saw the trailer of The Passion. Well, you could have fooled me, but it looked like a Middle eastern-set version of Gladiator.. The music was nearly identical, for starters..<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#24
In the US, on PAX, Cable TV channel 26, they will be airing a program on the making of Mel Gibson's "Passion". Sunday night 2/22/04 at 9 PM Eastern Standard Time. It will be interesting to see how much they cover on their historical background information for their depiction of the soldiers and other Romans.<br>
<br>
Regarding the Tau cross and the sign above Jesus' head, I suppose they could mount the sign on a length of wood, and then secure it to the top of the cross with a nail or two. I'm sure the soldiers brought extra nails. I own 5 Roman nails from Castra Victoria (now known as Inchtuthil) in Scotland. That is actually a solution used in an old epic I saw many many years ago. It certainly didn't have to remain up for a long period of time, just long enough for the particular crucified individual to die.<br>
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I do plan on parting with money to see the movie.<br>
<br>
Quintius Clavus<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Quinton Johansen
Marcus Quintius Clavus, Optio Secundae Pili Prioris Legionis III Cyrenaicae
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#25
Concerning Tom's point: I think armor on a crucifixion detail would have been a very good idea in hostile or at least occupied territory where the condemned might have resentful friends. Also, recall that in the Gospel account, the Romans thought until the last moment that they would be executing the insurrectionist Barabbas, not Jesus. Barabbas would be sure to have fellow seditionists in the Jerusalem crowd.<br>
Haven't seen the movie, which opens today, but saw some closeup pics of the soldiers. Helmets are sort of generic Imp. Ital, but the loricae are definitely dark iron, not leather. <p></p><i></i>
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#26
I'll be seeing "The Passion of the Christ" this Saturday, and will post a review.<br>
<br>
From the stills and trailers I've seen, the depiction of Roman legionaries is pretty good, by Hollywood standards. The helmets look like Italic Ds without the appliques, and the loricae are black or blue-iron versions of those seen on Trajan's column (with rounded ends and big studs on the shoulder guards). The soldiers also wear leather breeches-- questionable in a hot climate, but at least the material, fit and length look right.<br>
<br>
If Mel was striving for total accuracy (as he obviously was), the "legionaries" would have actually been auxiliaries, and kitted out accordingly. But I've been over this before...<br>
<br>
Anyway, it doesn't sound as though Roman soldiers come off very well in this movie. Get ready to be spat at and called "Christ killers"!<br>
<br>
T. Flavius Crispus<br>
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis<br>
California, USA <p></p><i></i>
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
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#27
Read today on an Italian newspaper that some knowledegable critic claims that in Jerusalem greek was more likely than aramaic! He also claims the roman centurions would be speaking greek too!<br>
I find this last very unlikely.<br>
<br>
What roman forces were there? Were they legionaries or auxilliaries? If legionaries, those of the time were italic(!) so no greek. If auxilliaries then what could the soldiers speak? What auxilliaries were used in Palestine at the time? Greek? Unlikely too.<br>
<br>
What are your opinions?<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Jeffery Wyss
"Si vos es non secui of solutio tunc vos es secui of preciptate."
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#28
Avete!<br>
As I understand it, Greek is even more likely than Latin, in Judea. By this point, nearly half of all legionaries appear to be non-Italian, and there is some suggestion that most of the Italians ended up in the Western legions. So far fewer would be in the east. Most eastern legionaries were Syrians and other locals, and the common language out there was Greek. Since Roman upper class officers all spoke Greek as a matter of course, no problem. Some Latin is still being used, of course--anyone who needed it would pick up the essentials quickly enough, same as Greek.<br>
<br>
But as Dave points out, the soldiers in Judea were all auxiliaries. I'm not sure if anyone has documented which units were there, but the nearest legions were in Syria and Pilate didn't command any. But that's okay, the different ethnic groups all got along very badly, so the soldiers would be all too likely to heap gratuitous abuse on Jews.<br>
<br>
It hadn't occurred to me until recently that we reenactors might actually draw fire for this movie. I'm actually looking forward to it! "Yeah, so what? We've got plenty of nails left!" Being a staunch Lutheran doesn't keep me from having a warped sense of humor, and I probably won't be able to resist "playing the part" right to the hilt--or to the nail head...<br>
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Anyone for a group trip to the movie in full kit?<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
<br>
Matthew/Quintus <p></p><i></i>
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#29
Avete,<br>
Graham Sumner has asked me to post this:<br>
<br>
Garrison Of Judaea:<br>
<br>
It is believed the garrison of Judaea was initially one cavalry unit, the ALA I SEBASTENORUM and at least five cohorts of infantry, one of them was possibly a COHORS I SEBASTENORUM. Local militias could also be raised as occasion demanded whilst the nearest Legions were in Syria. The total number of troops in Judaea was perhaps therefore no more than 3-5000 men.<br>
<br>
The soldiers were recruited mainly from the Romanised cities, especially Sebaste and Caesarea. The Romans undoubtedly exploited the fact that the local Samarians hated the Jews who were generally exempt from service in the Roman Army because of their unwillingness to fight on the Sabbath.<br>
<br>
However the Acts of the Apostles suggest there may have been other non local units based in Judaea including an 'Italian' cohort and a COHORS AUGUSTA. The true identity of both of these units has been hotly debated by various scholars<br>
<br>
When St Paul was arrested he was sent to Caesarea by the Tribune Claudius Lysias, commander of the Jerusalem garrison. Paul was escorted by 200 foot soldiers and 70 horsemen so possibly the Jerusalem garrison at that time was a COHORS EQUITATA.<br>
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During the trial of Christ, Pontius Pilate speaks directly to him. There is no mention of a translator being present and as Pilate was unlikely to speak Aramaic and Christ, Latin the common language must therefore have been Greek.<br>
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Like most English speaking Roman re-enactors today who know the Latin commands but don't speak it, the same must have happened in the Roman east where the official language of the army was Latin but the ordinary soldiers spoke to each other and wrote in Greek.<br>
<br>
After the trial of Christ the Romans do not seem to have expected too much trouble as the New Testament informs us that Christ was escorted to his execution by only four soldiers and a Centurion. Paul was obviously considered a greater security risk!<br>
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The way the soldiers play dice and divide up Christ's clothes afterwards is also an illuminating account.<br>
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For further information see 'The Roman Army in Judaea under the Procurators', M.P. Speidel.<br>
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When I was in Roman kit I was once asked by a little girl why had I crucified Jesus! Although dumbfounded at the time I can now say it was because the BBC paid me to do it!<br>
<br>
Graham <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#30
I am impressed and learned much. Thanks to all <p></p><i></i>
Jeffery Wyss
"Si vos es non secui of solutio tunc vos es secui of preciptate."
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