Late Republican Re-Enactment groups + handspun fibre query

[Helena Pictoria]

Hi All, nice to have found RAT again... been away a while. Changed my name a bit (didn't realise I could have asked them to activate my old one... anyhow, never mind...)

I'm looking for re-enactment groups who focus on the Late Republic - I'm writing a novel set right around 40 to 50 ish BC. Looking for things like personal opinions on how the armor feels weight-wise, weapons handling, women's costume etc. Hopefully with a website and photos - historical images are great, but its really useful seeing 'real' people in accurate garb.

Also hoping to find anyone daft enough to want to help check my manuscript for historical accuracy when I'm done!

On a related topic, I'm wondering about the feel of fibers. Usually people say they were rough, but I know there were some very high quality fibers produced at this time - especially Egyptian linnen and Chinese silk. I also suspect that the handspun and woven fibers - may have hung very differently (thinking here of tunic, toga, palla etc) to those that modern re-enactors wear that are made of very tightly spun, uniform, and tightly woven modern fibre. I haven't done much research on this yet, but I thought perhaps one of you might have come across someone producing handmade Roman cloth.

thanks
Helena Pictoria

[John M McDermott]

I have been working on Republican for quite some time. First abandon the notion that Roman soldiers of any era were Fred Flintstone wearing lots of animal skin.

Romans of all eras used lots of fabric of high quality. It was handmade and expensive, but that didn't stop them. Romans snapped up garments of high quality, such as the German sagum, whenever they found them. An accurate sagum costs about $2500 to produce today, and could have cost more in ancient times.

Fabrics such as linen, wool and hemp were used. Hemp is particularly wonderful. A real space age material from ancient times.

The weaves were exceptional. Some techniqes such as naalbinding are a lost art.

Mail was meticulously made of iron. It was made of flattened rings, half punched, half riveted, so the weight is considerably less than rounded, butted rings. It was worn under a padded linen or hemp subarmalia. This last garment is of absolute necessity for mail to function properly. Use of the fabric subarmalia means that the mail will actually protect you and not harm you, plus the mail shirt glides on and off over the fabric. In my opinion, leather was never used in this role. The subarmalia also distributes the weight of the mail in a comfortable way. I have seen absurd estimates that Roman mail shirts weighed 40+ pounds. Just try wearing one of those all day! I have. An accurated shirt should weigh less than 20 pounds.

[Caballo]

"In my opinion, leather was never used in this role". IIRC, doesn't Anon of De Rebus Bellicis desctibe Libyan hides being worn over the felt padding?
Btw, I absolutely agree that wearing mail without a subarmalis would not have happened.

Paulus

[Gordak]

What we are trying to say, Is Few Roman reenactors truly agree on anything,
SO please surf around and get a general feeling for the period, don't take all your research info from one or two posts.

Try doing a search on Republican in the search query. After an evening of reading through them, youll get a great feel for what all sorts of things were like in the period.
-Gordak

[FAVENTIANVS]

My mail shirt weights 12 kg.

I've made it myself, 7 months of work!!!

But I don't re-enact republican, but Late Roman... :?

[John M McDermott]

In my picture, to the left, I am wearing my first attempt at a subarmalia, which is leather. It was hot, made me sweat, did not make the mail any more wearable and made the mail very difficult to take off and put on. I have seen other posts compare the relative value of leather as armor or as support to armor and if I remember correctly, leather comes in second to fabrics such as linen. Fabric can be washed and cleaned with relative ease. Leather requires much more maintenance. Fabric breaths, leather doesn't. However, people still want to depict Roman soldiers wearing lots of leather. Does Vegetius say who was wearing these garments and for what purpose?

[Caballo]

Apologies- it was of course Anon in De rebus bellicis rather than Vegetius...

Sr Simon James discussed it is a thread elsewhere, and he is far more knowledgeable than I suspect I will ever be!

"Subject: Re: ARMA: Loricae Hamatae vs. Loricae Segmentatae
Reply-to: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:55:07

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:34:08 +0000
From: Simon James <[email protected]>
Reply-to: [email protected]
Organization: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: ARMA: Loricae Hamatae vs. Loricae Segmentatae

curator operis armamentarii wrote:
>
> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:24:34 -0500
> To: [email protected]
> From: [email protected] (Lynne M. Viverito)
> Subject: Re: ARMA: Loricae Hamatae vs. Loricae Segmentatae
>
> In regard to hamata. Was it worn without any padded under garment?
> Phil
>
Good question! One about which I, also, would like to hear from
re-enactors. It seems to me that both segmentate armour and mail were
probably regularly worn with a padded undergarment, like the late Roman
'thoracomachus' decsribed in the Anonymus *de rebus bellicis*:

`The ancients, among the many things which... they devised for use in
war, prescribed also the thoracomachus to counteract the weight and
friction of armour... This type of garment is made of thick sheep's wool
felt to the measure... of the upper part of the human frame...'
(Anonymus, de rebus bellicis, XV, 1-2; translation Ireland (with
amendments), from Hassall and Ireland 1979 32-3).
Hassall, M.W.C. and Ireland, R.I. (eds.) 1979: De Rebus Bellicis,
BAR S63, Oxford.

So, there you go. Do any re-enactors use such garments under mail? Scale
shirts, with their textile backing, may not have needed a separate
garment. I believe Mike Bishop has views on sub-segmenta garments...?
Simon
--
Dr. Simon James,
Department of Archaeology, University of Durham"

In the next para it also says "In case the weight of the Thoracomachus itself should become sodden with rain and should therefore hamper the wearer, it will certainly be advisable to wear on top of it a similar garment of well prepared Libyan fleeces (pellibus- some translate as skins)to the cut of the thoracomachus".

[Caius Fabius]

I use a under-mail "tunic" made from a very thick wool blanket, and worn over my normal tunic, when wearing mail. It pads the mail, and breathes fine, even in Oklahoma and Texas summers with temperatures of 40-47C. and it is warming in a wet cold climate, even when rain-soaked. When it is wet, it does become a bit heavier. I am thinking about adding leather pterges to it in the near future.

[Gordak]

This thread is getting way off coarse, does anybody have additional answers for the author who started the thread?

-Gordak

[Helena Pictoria]

Gordak, its ok - this is interesting. Its those details about things like the subermalia and the weight of the mail that are really important - things I can't always get from a dry history book.

I've got a good collection of resources now, includig Adkin's 'Handbook to Life in Ancient Rome', Goldsworthy's 'Roman Warfare', osprey Caesar's Legions, and a shelf-full of original sources and assorted other books on the era. And the net, of course. So I'm trying to add up all the little references from here and there to build a good mental picture.

Theres big research, dates and places. Then there's military rank, which is kind of doing my head in. And other social details, for example - I was under the impression that doctors were slaves. But it turns out that military surgeons were Immunes, rankers with specialist training.

The stuff I'm hoping to find out from re-enactors is just the kind of thing that you've been discussing - the texture of everyday life.

For a military example, what does it feel like to wield a blade for hours on end? What does it feel like when it contacts a shield does it vibrate, or is it a harsh jar? Does it grip into the shield or glance off?

Regarding the spinning of fabric, I can't help feeling that materials produced by modern mechanical means would have a very different feel to ancient ones. I'm sure they were amazing quality, but that it would be different somehow to the modern ones which have a bland uniformity. I actually imagine that the fibres, being less mechanically wound, might have felted a little more, and that, in combination with a slightly more open weave, might have resulted in a fabric that would be softer, draping better, but still very warm and relatively windproof. Might have to go google for textiles experts to ask.

I'll be back with some specific questions fairly soonish. Thanks for your input so far!

Helena Pictoria

aka Helen South

[John M McDermott]

Don't assume the quality would be less fine. To duplicate ancient fabrics (as found in bogs and other places) is a daunting task, and, in some cases, impossible. For example, the clavi was woven in, not embroidered on. I have heard much talk about reenactors doing this, but seen no results.

Back on the subarmalia: Mine is hemp padded by wool. It is everything you could want. Warm in wet conditions, dries quickly. Cool in the summer. Warm in winter. Tear resistant. Comfortable. I have given up thinking of mail and subarmalia as separate. To me, they are one defensive system.

[Neuraleanus]

For a military example, what does it feel like to wield a blade for hours on end? What does it feel like when it contacts a shield does it vibrate, or is it a harsh jar? Does it grip into the shield or glance off?

Well I cannot say too much about wielding a blade for hours on end, as I haven't yet done that, but I do have a bit of experience of shield on shield. At last year's Nashville event, we stood in two lines facing each other, the clash was supposed of been choreographed, aim for the guy to your left, do not worry about the guy on your right. Guess what? I do as I'm told, I clash with the guy on my left, and then here comes the guy opposite to me from my right. I see him, turn about with my scutum raised high, but I wasn't prepared for the impact. The upper edge of my scutum and my nose make contact. I had a sore nose for at least a week after-wards.

You also learn what works and what doesn't. I saw many smashed shield bosses that day. Mine is made from 14 gauge steel. It came through with only a tiny dent. A legionaire doesn't go cheap on his scutum.

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

for sword on shield it all depends how you hit the shield, and also even quality of the blade, I have had a sword break in the collision even, usually on a point thrust a well trained warrior on the other side will slightly deflect it and send it to the side, occasionaly it will stick, with a hack and slash it is all usually deflected. when a sharp sword cuts your flesh, at least with me, I don't usually feel it right away, I feel the blunt impact long before the sting, wich usually is induced by sweat dripping in.
shield on shield is virtually what is said in the previous post, if you aren't careful you end up with your own shield in your face.

[Helena Pictoria]

Oh, that's great info. About the blunt impact and the sting coming later - I'll use that for sure. I wish we had a group near here so I could actually get into this stuff for myself - I know I'd be terrible but at least I could get a bit of an idea. Oh well.

If you're feeling creative, perhaps you could describe in detail how a hand-to-hand fight feels? You face off your opponent - he lunges at you - then what? I've written a fairly choppy scene based on what I've seen in movies, and imagination. You hear your own breath, sweat drips in your eyes - do you hear him breathing hard? Where's the killing thrust - do you get him under the arm, or slit his throat?

I've got an early scene where there is a mob riot (Clodius and Milo's thugs) - mostly punches and rocks being thrown - but daggers might get drawn - though I guess a big rock to the back of the head will do it..... What would an off-duty officer (I'm thinking he'll have to be a praefectus cohortis, maybe a tribune? He's pretty young, has seen a few years of earliest service already) - be wearing, and would he be carrying a weapon at all?

thanks heaps
Helena
aka Helen South

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

actually, the typical first thing in military combat is the collision of shields, then thrusts are aimed around the shield, there is a great deal of pushing, and shield collision, usually that is what you hear, not so much breath, the sweat in the eyes is a factor, I usually end up coming around to the back of the neck or in the side, since the shield is in the way otherwise, a well trained soldier might quickly try to dive down and unbalnce an opponent with a slash to the legs, there are also cuts to the arms, that is where most of my wounds and scars are, hands and arms, especially my right hand.

yes, off duty soldiers would have a pugio and belt on minimum, he would probably not be in helmet, and only a dagger, no body armor usually