Greek Language

[hoplite14gr]

Is seems that I am among the few native Greek speakers on the forum.
So I take up to me to attempt to aid those interested in the Greek Language.

Some points.

Modern Greek are slightly different from the Ancient Greek.After all modern English are not spoken as they were at the time of the Bard.

Linear B tablets take the Greek language back in time up to 1800 B.C.
If scholars agree on the translation of Linear A the it will officially go beyond 2500 B.C. and If they agree that the Dispilio wooden plaque is Linear A the it might go to to Paleolithic age.

Until the proto-Byzantine times the are were only capital letters. Then the scholars started using the small letters.

The "weird" small signs on the letters that you see on your prototype ancient text books were an invention of the Alexandrian scholars to aid the pronunciation and they were not used by Classical Greeks

For pronunciation guide see attached image.
OK I couldn´t post it I will sent it to the ADMINS and they can aid me on that I hope.

Forget the nice graphical letter that you have seen in cinema or game titles. Usually they bear no relation to the real thing.

Not but for first time I hope.
Kind regards

*Admin edit*

[Anonymous]

It's quite useful for us, Greek reenactors, when there are native Greeks on the forum

I've got a reply from another Greek on another forum. I'll post it here.

ΟΝΟΜΑΖΟΜΑΙ * =My name is *
ΛΑΚΕΔΑΙΜΟΝΙΟΣ (ΕΙΜΙ)= I am from Lacedemona/Sparta (the word in the parenthesis is the first singular of the ancient greek verb for "be", Spartans were Laconic, and didn't say words that could be implied, so I put it in a parenthesis).

ΣΥΝ ΛΕΩΝΙΔΙ ΕΝ ΘΕΡΜΟΠΥΛΑΙΣ ΕΣΤΡΑΤΕΥΘΗΝ=with Leonidas in Thermopylae I fought.

Another, more Laconic syntax would be:
* ΛΑΚΕΔΑΙΜΟΝΙΟΣ, ΣΥΝ ΛΕΩΝΙΔΙ ΕΝ ΘΕΡΜΟΠΥΛΑΙΣ
* Lacedemonean (I am), with Leonidas in Thermopylae (I were).

Α+Ι=Ε (like Estimate)
A+Y='AF (Like AFrica in english. In Greek it's ΑΦΡΙΚΉ)
H+Y=IF (Like the english word IF)
O+I=I (Like Independence)
O+Y=U (Like saying CorneliUs)
E+I=I (Like O+I)
E+Y='EF (Like AY)

Now there's a rule about some of them. If you aim for 100% realism in accent, you'll have to make I's of different lengths. There are different lengths about the Difthogi too.
When OI in the ABSOLUTE end of a word (the last two letters that is), then it's like a single I, else it's a long I. The EI always sounded like a long I.

Also, ancient greeks used the length of a letter's accent to determine where the word would be toned. Since there's no accent in modern greek, and their accent is still an unsolved mystery (those are mathematical estimates I made) we're using a toning system. And since you cannot know where words would be toned, here's the rule of thumb:
Before the toned letter I'll be adding a ΄ so that you know which one it is. BUT: Ancient Greeks wrote only in Caps, and used no tones on their writing.

Some examples:

ΘΏΡΑΞ ΛΑΚΕΔΑΙΜΌΝΙΟΣ ΣΎΝ ΛΕΩΝΊΔΙ ΈΝ ΘΕΡΜΟΠΎΛΑΙΣ
Pronounced:
TH'ORAX LACEDAEM'ONIOS S'IN LEON'ITHI 'EN THERMOP'ILAES

It's hard to describe it in english letters, as I don't know the pronounciation codes, but if you have alook at the diagram above, you'll have no problem understanding.

[hoplite14gr]

Well he did better than me because he included the double vowels
AI, EI, OY, EY, AY, and their pronouncieantions.

For those who have Linux try the english pages of www.eexi.gr or hellug.gr to support Greek fonts.

For windows users go to control pane, tick the Greek in the international settings and update the input locals if you want on the keyboard.
I usualy set my browser to Greek windows 1253
If I try to write something in Greek you can see it that way.

The erasmian pronaciation that they use in Benelux Universities has some validity.
EXAMPLE:
HPA long I, the Godess IPA sharp I. a grain prasite!

I hope I helped.
Kind regards

Stefanos

[hoplite14gr]

Well he did better than me because he included the double vowels
AI, EI, OY, EY, AY, and their pronounciantions.

For those who have Linux try the english pages of www.eexi.gr or www.hellug.gr to support Greek fonts.

For windows users go to control panel, tick the Greek in the international settings and update the input locals if you want on the keyboard.
I usualy set my browser to Greek windows 1253
If I try to write something in Greek you can see it that way.

The erasmian pronouciation that they use in Benelux Universities has some validity.
EXAMPLE:
HPA long I, the Godess IPA sharp I, a grain prasite!

I hope I helped.
Kind regards

Stefanos

[L C Cinna]

hmmm just a question>

my study books for ancient greek say something different>

like the word you use in your sig. sotèr being pronounced more like the sound in the english word "air" for example. so like "sot-(air) if you know what I mean, and the "h" actually being pronounced. I know there are different theories but which one is the more common one?

I know that many many modern greeks thend to make the "mistake" (not meant as an offence) to lean too much towards modern pronounciation. So anyone got a brief explanation? or maybe some discussion about it?

[hoplite14gr]

Language is a living thing so it is subject to changes..
In modern Greek "H, I, Y," have the same phonetic value "I" as in WIN.
The standard gramar book makes distinction between long -short vowels.
In the modern pronanciation it does not make sence but ancient Greeks made the distinction.
In the Doric dialect as spoken in North greece there might be the pronounciation as you mention it. Some times on potery SOTIR has been inscribed as SOTER and words ending in DHS inscribed as DES example
SIMONIDHS-SIMONIDES.
Doric dialect "official" version are the tragedy chorus verses but I cannot guarantee that Voiotians or Macedonians pronounced that way.
Count the Fact that the acheans had a less researched prounanciation

What the Alexandrian scholars came to think as "official" came to us as official. Count in also the meddling of Cristian Authorities like Vasileios bishop of Cesaria and others that consider the Scriptures language version as "official" and you have more variations.

I have in my mind more the Ionic pronanciation of the proverb that I use.
If you use it reptitively as a marching chant it flows more easily.
Kind regards
Stefanos

[L C Cinna]

thank you for the reply.

I've been studying the history of the english and german language so I know about the changes within a language.

what about the change of"u" to "v"? from what i know words like eudaimonia or euangelion were pronounced like (trying to use english here although i think english is not the best language for such a transcription):

e-(like in "end") u (like in bruised)-daimonia for example. this is a change which took place during byzantinian times, right?

[hoplite14gr]

No this type of pronanciation was earlire than Byzantium.

"EY" has two pronounciations depending on the word.

EYKOLOS -> EFKOLOS=easy
EYOIA-> EVIA -> a Greek Island

According to my Classics teacher
EY+ vowel prounounced EV
EYANAGNOSTOS->EVANAGNOSTOS = being read with ease

EY+ consonant prounounced EF
EYKRATOS->EFKRATOS = with good climate.

Exception "R" EYRYS -> EVRIS=wide
Note Aiolians(West Greece) would pronounce EFRIS though!

"AY" has also two pronounciations depending on the word.
AYRIO -> AVRIO = tomorrow
AYTO -> AFTO = This or neutral form of pronoun
This unfortunately only how you get aquainted with the language.

Sorry for the Greenglish. It was the best I could do to help.
Kind regards
Stefanos

[hoplite14gr]

Feeling adventurus with the alphabet then:
http://www.krassanakis.gr/greek.htm

Want to learn about the history of the language then:
http://www.krassanakis.gr/GREEKGLOSSA.htm

Try windows 1253 encoding or other Greek encodings if your browser shows funny sumbols instead of Greek letters.

Kind regards
Stefanos

[Arthes]

Greetings,
over here we pronounce Macedonia with a 'D' but now I discover that Delta is pronounced 'th'.....(which I thought was Theta :? ) I remember when in Greece 'Salonika was pronounced differently along with others (places in Spain like Valencia too)
A realisation that Thessalonika probably comes from 'Thessaly' has just hit me too....lol
regards
Arthes

[hoplite14gr]

TH in english is either Delta or Theta so if somebody give pronunciation instructions must take effort to give examples in my opinion.
Thessaloniki means Victory in Thessaly and was the name given to Kassandros sister who was born at the day of the Battle of Kraniona where Antipater beat the Athenians after the death of Alexander.
Other speculate that was the smalest siter of Alexander that did not survive childhood and the name was give to her by Philip after the victory in Magnesia near modern Volos.
Kind regards
Stefanos

[Arthes]

Early Greek writing unearthed on Crete

Archaeologists in Crete have found an important trove of archaeological treasures containing some of the earliest known examples of Greek writing, the Culture Ministry said Saturday.

It said the finds were excavated at a long-abandoned site on a hill overlooking the port of Hania in western Crete, which has been identified with the Minoan city of Kydonia.

Among the discoveries was an amphora containing an intact text written in Linear B, the language of the court at Mycenae where the legendary Agamemnon ruled.
[url:3sh6qo3l]http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100014_14/11/2005_62979[/url]
Can I see a big grin on Stefanos's face after he reads the full article.....
regards
Arthes

[hoplite14gr]

Dear Cristina you should see my smile when scholars finaly agree on the exact meaning of Linear A which is even more older than Linear B.
I guess when they decrypt beyond doubt the Phaistos disk I will invite you to a big party.
For those who want to find alternative thoughts on Greek alphabet may I suggest to try the english pages of www.ancientgr.com .
Kind regards
Stefanos

P.S. I guess I must invite you to the party according to the following link:
http://www.anistor.co.hol.gr/english/enback/v014.htm
Must I tell my wifr to start coocking?

[drsrob]

Dear Cristina you should see my smile when scholars finaly agree on the exact meaning of Linear A which is even more older than Linear B.
I guess when they decrypt beyond doubt the Phaistos disk I will invite you to a big party.

Have you read Fred Woudhuizen, The Language of the Sea Peoples, Amsterdam 1992 ?

[Arthes]

Dear Cristina you should see my smile when scholars finaly agree on the exact meaning of Linear A which is even more older than Linear B.
I guess when they decrypt beyond doubt the Phaistos disk I will invite you to a big party.
For those who want to find alternative thoughts on Greek alphabet may I suggest to try the english pages of www.ancientgr.com .
Kind regards
Stefanos

P.S. I guess I must invite you to the party according to the following link:
http://www.anistor.co.hol.gr/english/enback/v014.htm
Must I tell my wifr to start coocking?

I was reading the second of the Alexander Trilogy last night, about Queen Ada of Caria and her masses of food..... :lol: