Rhomphaia

[Paullus Scipio]

The description of them of them 'discomfiting' the cavalry "[color=#0000FF]....the Thracians did very creditably against the Theban cavalry, which attacked them first and put up a good defence by adopting the tactics of their country, that is to say by charging out in detachments and then falling back again......

I find this sort of action hard to attribute to swordsmen or men equipped with rhomphaias - the "tactics of their country" were to charge out in detachments, throw javelins, then fall back again. That's not usually a successful tactic against cavalry. I think the Theban cavalry were light cavalry in inferior numbers, and this explains their relative lack of success, although they did inflict casualties on the Thracians and drove them off so they won the engagement.

That's certainly possible, but as you point out, not usually a successful tactic against cavalry, not least because the cavalry, being more mobile, can 'charge out in detachments' better than infantry, literally running rings around them.
The whole passage reads:

"When the news reached the Thebans they hastened to the rescue. Coming upon the Thracians before they had gone far, they took away the spoil/booty and, struck terror into them, and drove them to the Euripus, where the ships which had brought them were moored. Of those who fell, the greater number were slain in the attempt to embark; for they did not know how to swim, and the men on board, seeing what was happening, had anchored their vessels out of bow-shot. In the retreat itself the Thracians made a very fair defence against the Theban cavalry which first attacked them, running out and closing in again, after the manner of their country; and their loss was trifling. But a good many who remained for the sake of plunder were cut off within the city and slain. The whole number who fell was two hundred and fifty, out of thirteen hundred. They killed, however, some of the Thebans and others who came to the rescue, in all about twenty, both horsemen and hoplites. Scirphondas, one of the Theban Boeotarchs, was slain. A large proportion of the Mycalessians perished. Such was the fate of Mycalessus; considering the size of the city, no calamity more deplorable occurred during the war"

What happened seems basically clear.The bulk of the Thracians had begun their withdrawal after massacring the townspeople (Mycalessus was a fair way inland), laden with booty. The Theban cavalry came up first, as one might expect and 'bailed them up' until the rest of the Theban force, which included light troops ( reference to archers, though most must have been local peasants armed with hunting spears/javelins, slingstones and hand-thrown stones) and Hoplites, arrived.They must have heavily outnumbered the Thracians, for they make no attempt to stand. The Thracians carried out a disciplined fighting withdrawal, losing few men, but having to abandon the booty. Those still in the city were hunted down and killed. On arriving at the shore the Athenian ships pulled away out of bowshot and it is here that most of the Thracian casualties occurred, mostly by drowning. In the retreat itself, the Thracians seem to have had the best of the running battle, killing twenty cavalry and Hoplites, including their General. The well protected Hoplites are unlikely to have been killed by javelin fire and this to me suggests that actual close combat took place, as does the death of the commander. As well, the Dii "swordsmen" are likely to have been more inclined to close combat than the average peltast, by virtue of their weapons. Since hoplites would also have swords, perhaps the reason the Thracians had the better of the fighting was the use of 'rhomphaia' to hamstring horses and give them a chance against 'aspis' shielded hoplites.....of course the Thebans might have been beaten purely by javelin fire, but in that case it is curious that no Theban light troops were casualties, if it was just a missile fight, and there would be no hoplite casualties ( as at Sphacteria for example) as they'd have stayed back.

Speculation, of course, but it does suggest the Thracians in this instance pulled off something unusual, since peltasts beating hoplites was a cause for wonder ( e.g. Iphicrates at Lechaion), and that in turn opens up the 'distinct possibility' that they just may have been 'rhomphaia' armed......

[sitalkes]

That's an interesting analysis to say the least but there were many instances of peltasts defeating hoplites with just javelins. No super weapon was necessary. Pursuing hoplites would be vulnerable to javelin fire as they would likely to be disorganised. By the way, when I said "light cavalry" that realy wasn't necessary, only that the cavalry preferred throwing javelins to charging home - if they are chargin out, throwing javelins, and retreating then that might explain why the peltasts might succeed at the same tactics (especially if the men on foot have a longer range). If the peltasts were armed with full length rhomphaias then you would expect them to behave like Japanese armed with naginatas or English medieaval troops armed with bills - about which I know very little but I presume they stood still when faced by cavalry???

[Paullus Scipio]

Sitalkes/Chris wrote:

many instances of peltasts defeating hoplites with just javelins.

Not that I can think of - for this period? The Peloponnesian war?....or Thucydides era. The few occasions when light troops get the better of Hoplites are remarkable (literally!)....sufficient for Thucydides to comment - e.g. Sphacteria, Lechaion.

What are the many instances you have in mind?

I presume they stood still when faced by cavalry???

In pitched battle, perhaps but nobody stands still in a 'fighting withdrawal' or 'rearguard action' ! See Xenophon's "Ten Thousand" generally for how such things were carried out ( including against cavalry). The defenders rush at the attackers, to make them pull back, then smartly retreat to the main body of retiring troops, then when the pursuers get close and are 'nipping at the defender's heels' once more, the defenders sally out to drive them off.....just as Thucydides describes the Thracians doing. 'Bloodying the attackers nose' by closing and killing a few is desirable to help persuade attackers to keep their distance. Repeat until withdrawal successfully carried out, or rearguard overwhelmed.....

[Renger]

My Thrakian Rhomphaia

If you are interested i sell the rhomphaia

[sitalkes]

My Thrakian Rhomphaia

If you are interested i sell the rhomphaia

I'm interested!! You own an original??? What do you know about it? How much!! By the way I love the alopekis reconstruction on your web page

Chris

[Paullus Scipio]

By the by, we get an interesting confirmation of the way in which the rhomphaia was used from a passage in Plutarch (Agis and Cleomenes XXVI) describing Cleomenes Lakedaemonian troops 'ravaging' Argive lands:
...ravaging the plain and destroying the grain, not cutting this down, as usual, with sickles and knives, but beating it down with large sticks fashioned like 'rhomphaia'.These his soldiers plied as if in sport, while passing through, and with no effort at all they would crush and ruin all the crop......

Clearly then, rhomphaia could be used to cut and slash sideways, as well as thrust like spears.....

[M. Demetrius]

Beating the grain down with large sticks isn't the same as harvesting, of course. But I can see how a long stick could dramatically damage a wheat/oat/rye field especially when it's just making the grain heads. Take away their food; take away their fight. A sickle would naturally work the same, but few armies carry hundreds of them on campaign. Sticks are easier to commandeer.

Interesting anecdote.

[PMBardunias]

large sticks fashioned like 'rhomphaia'

The term "fashioned" to me implies that they were carved to flatten them or simply split. Often I find myself in the woods or jungle (for research) without a machete handy. A simple split stick, or best a palm frond, can be pressed into use to clear vines and weed, so I imagine they could cut crops as well.

[Paralus]

Beating the grain down with large sticks isn't the same as harvesting, of course. But I can see how a long stick could dramatically damage a wheat/oat/rye field especially when it's just making the grain heads.

Or, for that matter, a sarissa...

Arr. 1.4.1
Alexander led his men through the field of standing corn, ordering the infantry to lean upon the corn with their pikes held transversely, and thus to advance into the untilled ground.

More of an attempt to flatten I suppose. Where it ripe or near ripe the idea, I imagine, would be to break the stalks as well as flush any enemy out.

[Paullus Scipio]

Paralus wrote:

More of an attempt to flatten I suppose. Where it ripe or near ripe the idea, I imagine, would be to break the stalks as well as flush any enemy out.

...we are drifting off-topic here, but just to round this off, it was common practice (in Western Europe at least) prior to the 20th century and mechanical harvesting, to allow 'standing' corn to grow to a height of 5-6 ft ( 1.5-1.8 m) before harvesting, and presumably this was the case in Greece also....thus standing corn could indeed provide cover from view to troops.....

[M. Demetrius]

Are you using "corn" in the sense of the older British word for wheat? Corn (the yellow stuff on a cob) can get that tall, but I've never seen wheat that high. Of course, I don't know much about ancient wheat. What wheat and oats we grow around here is about half a meter high.

[Paralus]

Are you using "corn" in the sense of the older British word for wheat? Corn (the yellow stuff on a cob) can get that tall, but I've never seen wheat that high.

Generic for grains (barley, wheat etc). Corn is a New World crop unknown to the west until the Spanish found it in the Americas. Along with tomatoes, squash, potatoes...

[M. Demetrius]

Right. That's what prompted the clarifying question.

[sitalkes]

This hardly makes sense, though, given the fact that Livy explicitly tells us that at Cynoscephalae the Thracians' rhomphaiai were too long to be of use in woods!

Actually, Cynoscephalae was probably rocky open terran, no woods - the incident you refer to ocurred in a heavily wooded pass elsewhere