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Scutum Grip
#31
Hi Adam
I didn't state clearly but the shield I use most is based on the Danum (Doncaster) Find and I'm in the early stags of making a full replica. I find the vertical hand grip changes the way I fight I use the shield in a more vigorous way in small swiping motions and find it leads to a "free-er" style. but that could just be me!
Vortigan

Quote:vertical grips did exist, in Celtic shields (because of the vertical spine)

Maybe in some but all the La Tene Shields, the Chertsey shield and the Battersey shield have horizontal grips and the Chertsey and La Tene Shields are spined.
Tasciavanous
AKA James McKeand
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#32
Ah? Not my cup of tea, and it shows. Big Grin But I'm one of the 'horizontal grip' camp, and it strengthens my case. Thanks!
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#33
Hi Tasciavanous,

From my use of sheilds I would totally agree with that- a horizonatal shield would be ideal for heavy infantry- let blows reign in get behind the shield and counter by closing down an oppponent in the shield wall- making defence/attack with it more of a "punching" motion. After all the curved face and sturdy ply construction make it more durable. (we have tested sheilds with sharp axes to destruction.. whilst holding it!)

vertical grips seems to, as you say, make your shield use more like that of a "swinging" weapon for flicking away blows, and shield edge attacks. More ideal for looser and particularly 1 on 1 fighting.

I also wonder about practicality- if you are using an oval or rectangular shield over longer distances which is easier to carry? For that horizontal wins hands down. For me this seems one of the major factors alongside many others why proffesional troops in marching field armies, like those in romes armies at their height, used a horizontal grip.

Sounds trivial- it's easier to carry, but on a campaign how much did a soldier march compared to fight? But surely he wouldn't modify his defensive/offensive equiptment just for this???? Confusedhock: ... Soldiers in every army in history so far seems to have done so Big Grin

Just some thoughts I have- please feel free to pull apart!

Adam :wink:
On a cold and gray Chicago mornin\'
A poor little baby child is born
In the ghettoooooo...
(vocalist extrodinaire- Eric Cartman)
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#34
Hi Adam
Quote:Just some thoughts I have- please feel free to pull apart!

No need to pull anything apart I think we are "singing from the same Hymn sheet"
Have your experiments been published in any form? I'd be very interested in your results and methodology.
Tasciavanous
AKA James McKeand
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#35
We are documenting what we do, mainly photos and video, and a few notes. But we intend to cover a wide scope of weapons and armour, from a broad period. So the answer is yes we will eventually try to get our findings etc out there, written up, but who knows how long it could be??

Part the problem is knowing where to draw the line, and that is where the methodology comes in- i.e are modern steels and materials OK- well no technically, but what factor do they have on an experiment?

We also try and build everything from scratch which is pretty time consuming, recently we constructed a hand bellows forge to try to test out some 9th century metal working, but technically we still ain't smelting and consolidating our own blooms.

Shields are one thing that does fascinate me and we are intending to try splitting the wood to form the planks for the shield as opposed to sawing as this leaves a hell of a lot inherent strength in the wood, which sawing doesn't.

doesn't leave much time for a job though does it?
cheers

Adam
On a cold and gray Chicago mornin\'
A poor little baby child is born
In the ghettoooooo...
(vocalist extrodinaire- Eric Cartman)
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#36
Hi Adam
Sounds like fascinating stuff. Please keep us posted.
Yep split wood is amazing stuff. A friend of mine is a woodland manager I went out with him one day and he showed me some of the stuff he had done with split wood that I would never have thought of attempting with sawn wood.
Tasciavanous
AKA James McKeand
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#37
Not all swords, and certainly not all techniques are created equal...Or should I say, "close to each other". It's apples and oranges. Weapons are designed and developed for specific purposes. And many of them and thier techniques between cultures can appear to be "similar but different"

I'm not going to say combining Japanese sword techniques and European techniques is "wrong", I do agree that to an extent that with any physical martial art, there are only so many ways one can move thier bodies, nevermind with something in thier hands, so there certainly is a bit of "crossover" and similarities in techniques. But, they are similarities. They are comparable. But when you take a little from book A and book B and book C, then you're making a composite technique, you're creating something new using tried and true techniques. That in and of itself is really quite interesting, and I'm sure it's a blast to experiment with, but I personally won't see that as "historically accurate". Again, I'm not saying this is wrong, it's just you're making a whole new technique.

And from what new research has been done, we're not the first to "dabble" and combine techniques. Paulus Hector Mair (mid 1500's) developed and wrote a Fechtbuch combining and borrowing from several manuals/fechtbuch that preceeded him, many of which he collected. It's really quite fascinating to see how he pulls specific technique from [older] manuals and interjects them into his "ideal" systems.

Even Stephen Hand, writing is his book about Sword and Buckler techniques and observations, he even states that he's interjected other sources into his system, which is based on the I.33 Walpurgis fechtbuch.
(there is actually a very good "facsimile and translation" of I.33 which I recommend, if I may sneak in a shameless plug ~ I.33 has given me a number of insights on Roman scuta et gladii possibilities)

But I have to step in with my own 2 cents, I'm not directly bashing the SCA, but to say being "Historically Accurate" while combining Eastern and Western techniques, while using rataan/ductape weapons, to me it just doesn't add up to "accurate". Fun? I'm sure. Insightfiul and thought-provoking? Most certainly. Historical? Ah, no, I don't buy that. I'm not stopping people, I'm just saying...apples and oranges. I also find it rather interesting that some former SCAdians I've talked to tried researching Historical manuals and techniques, tried to use them in SCA combat, and left the SCA completely dissapointed with the inconsistent results....I'm sorry but IMHO, SCA and [Western Martial Arts] are two completely different worlds.

However, on Shield grips, I have to agree with other who pointed out, if having a Horizontal grip was such a disadvantage, then why did they bother using it for [hundreds] of years? There was a reason they did it, and we're probably still trying to figure it out. (and that's why I won't directly dismiss the "dabbling", it can give us insights on possibilities...Note I'm saying possibilities. When we find the long lost Fighting Manual of Roman Legionaries, then I'll shushup and listen..Until then, we just don't know *how* exactly they did it.)

There also has been some terrific experimental work by a fellow reenactor who is into Viking age reenacting. He's been engrossed with working out ideas on "sword and shield" - Spatha length sword and circular shield...which BTW the Romans were using in the later periods! Hmmm! He's been looking at I.33 as well as the Fechtbuchs by Hans Talhoffer as well as "let's try this" work. He's found some incredible stuff.
( http://www.hurstwic.org/history/article ... #technique )

My own findings, I haven't had much issue handling the scutum, other than suffering Armor Pinch while carrying it around. But, I'd rather hold it horizontally than trying to keep my elbow bent if the grip was vertical.

I've found that when using Sword and Buckler techniques (I.33), I find myself holding the buckler with the grip horizontal, although that's probably just 'bad habit' on my part Big Grin but I've found using both vertical or horizontal grips makes little difference in effective technique.

I think I'm starting to ramble here, so I'll try to sum it up.
Truth is, we don't know exactly how the Romans and thier enemies fought, and sadly, we may never know. We do know about some things, like Vegetius; and that thrusting was the primary and preferred attack. Short jabs, within 2-3 inches into the body, was designed to be fatal with 1 [or 2] hits. (interesting to note Rapier combat in the Renaissance concluded the same ideal) Add that ubiquitos "twist" when you're in the enemies' gut, and it's all over...pardon the pun. These were professional, armored, trained soldiers, using close-quarters formations and tactics. They weren't fooling around with this stuff. They used what worked for what the enemies threw at them.

What we can do is continue to research surviving materials, experiment, and even interject composite techniques to figure out educated guesses. But it still remains, as of right now, we don't know what the factual answers are. We also need to make sure we try to have fun continuing to do this stuff.
Andy Volpe
"Build a time machine, it would make this [hobby] a lot easier."
https://www.facebook.com/LegionIIICyr/
Legion III Cyrenaica ~ New England U.S.
Higgins Armory Museum 1931-2013 (worked there 2001-2013)
(Collection moved to Worcester Art Museum)
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#38
This (very large) image, the tombstone of Aelius Septimus, was originally posted in another thread, by Paullus Brittanicus:

[url:3ab5lj2u]http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raid5/hungary/budapest/museums/hungarian_national_museum/rome/sculpture/funerary/stele_reliefs/DSCN6090.JPG[/url]

Another piece of evidence for the vertical grip, I'd say - unless the soldier on the left is holding his shield back over his shoulder... Looks like a round shield again, although it's hard to make out. Interesting equipment too, incidentally - the muscle cuirass and 'unusual' helmet (n.b that inverted V at the front! 8) ) greatly resemble certain figures from the Arch of Constantine reliefs (note the central figure):

[url:3ab5lj2u]http://sights.seindal.dk/photo/8172f.html[/url]

Once again from Constantine's arch, we have this depiction of a 'hoplon' style shield with vertical side grip:

[url:3ab5lj2u]http://sights.seindal.dk/photo/8166f.html[/url]

IIRC, there are shields similar to this and the one from the Galerius reliefs mentioned above also on the arch of Diocletian. I believe that the very clear and specific details on all these carvings mitigate against their being 'classicised' or generic portrayals. Interestingly, all of them (including, possibly, the Aelius tombstone) fall with in the later 3rd-early 4th century timeframe. Hmmmm...
Nathan Ross
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#39
Quote:Ah? Not my cup of tea, and it shows. Big Grin But I'm one of the 'horizontal grip' camp, and it strengthens my case. Thanks!

I guess it's the case that the horizontal grip on a rectangular scutum
allows the brass edging on the bottom (and top) to be used as an
offensive weapon. With the shield held almost horizontally, you can
punch at the enemy with the bottom edge, while keeping them at a safe
distance. Conversely, in a crush, you can even give them an uppercut
with the top edge. But certainly, puching with the lower edge would be
impossible if the grip was vertical. :wink:

Ambrosius
"Feel the fire in your bones."
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#40
Nathan,
The problem with the late shields is that they (IMHO) were circular and, therefore, it was easy to change them from 'horizontal' to 'vertical' grip in combat.

Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#41
But if someone still went around with an oval shield Big Grin they would have found that a horizontal grip would indeed be easier when using the rim as a weapon.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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