thoughts on Formations and such

[SOCL]

[quote="RUBICON":14b63w5h]Can someone recommend a good tactical military website, In keeping with the discussion, how would the line know you were going to give ground for the volley of missiles coming...back to the command issue.

Do you mean that the legionaries would move back, opening up the space bewteen themselves and the enemy, the missiles come through and then they would advance forward while the enemy is under fire?

Damn I need to learn some warfare tactical terms )

[RUBICON]

just asking!

[Luca]

I don't think we are speaking of "experimental archeology" because this science is strictly related to "objects" I mean phisical items. This is more connected to tacticts and movement. I don't know how to call it "experimental history"?

The pila discussion is interesting. One or two pila are assumed to be used by the front ranks and also the very first line. I remember some studies that were based on the Julius Caesar books, that the lines, in order to launch pila, did some movement ahead accelerating the steps, and creating a gap with the second line, in order to get more power. But this action has unother important safety aspect, while charging the arm the pila pull its bottom point backward. This is very dangerous for the face of the men in the second rank that could receive them in a eye. This is the reason why it is reasonable to think about some meters of gap between lines while launching pila.

[RUBICON]

I agree. You physically have these items, ie pila, legionaries so its hard fact when assuming how much space, the dangers, the efffect of these movements would have...I would have to say you guys are seeing first hand, pretty much how it would have been.

Youre almost reliving hostory...now that is a BUZZ!

It has always amazed that during battle, the overarm swing of an axe, sword etc how close combatants of the same side were to eachother without risking being cut by one of their own. Understanding the romans were tightly packed and using a thrusting action of their swords rather than cutting motion, does it mean that on approach they were some distance apart from eachother to throw their pila and then tightly packed to receive the enemy. What did they do with their pila when they created the testudo when and if they were under fire from enemy missiles ie arrows on approach before they launched the pila....

If the front ranks are appraoching the enemy, with pila (2). the enemy fires arrows, I assume the legonaire would crouch under his shield? if he does crouch with his pila down by his side does it leave him vulnerable?

Then when they do launch their pila, teh line behind would have been some distance behind as not to get stabbed with the overarm launch?

Once launched I assume they charged the enemy, surely their woudl have vulnerable gaps and the formation not as tight as assumed?


Can anyone enlighten me?

[Luca]

lot of troubles....

about the swings you are right. In my experience "friend fire" is really bad also applied to romans. And we do not carry sharpened blades!
I personally got a small incident during a charge standing in the first row because we got too pression from the second row. Well, I was in the first line and after the launch of the pila I extracted the gladium, but the celt in front of me reached me very fast and hit my shield. My gladius was hardly pulled from the rear "friend" man and I hit my leg penetrating it for a couple of centimetres (less than one inch) because my gladius is not sharpened on the edges, but has a very sharp point. The trouble was that my arm was completely stuck between the compression on the shield and the friend behind me. So I needed some "very long" seconds to extract the gladius from my leg, probably in ancient time I would be killed.

About the testudo I have my personally point of view. I think that the true "hard" testudo was used only while approaching enemy walls under siege (i.e. Trajan Column). In this case pila were not carried so the testudo was formed with no troubles.
Literature reports other rare situations when the testudo was formed, but I think that all those "testudos" where done simply instictively: you see something approaching, you protect yourself (your head) with what you have also a naked arm sometimes (don't you see C.S.I. on TV?).

[RUBICON]

Hahahaha better for me not to mention television as a source.

I think it would be very difficult in battle. As you say with enemy pressing from in front and your lines behind you pressing forward, it would be VERY CLOSE contact fighting, maybe why references of 'bloodied legionaires' cut from maybe friendly fire.

I guess too, ( I have a full armour and scutum here though I dont wear for re enactment) that swinging around to confront enemy with scutum, pila and or gladius and getting STUCK would mean certain death.

With the testudo I agree, but I imagine in approach to the enemy if under fire, to raise your scutum above your head quickly enough with close ranks beside you and in front surely many would have got stuck and perished for much the same reason as you discussed with your own incident. I magine too, stepping over and tripping over bodies and or equipment, mud and poor conditions too would have hindered forward advancement too?

[Luca]

TV in this case simply used something real to describe a situation. Try to protect yourself with your arms is instinctive. Ask to doctors that works in the emergency staff.

The first problem to protect yourself is: to realize the danger. There are too many things to keep under control and can happen that you don't see archers charging their weapons because you are already controlling the enemy just in front of you that is charging, or you signifer signs, or your centurion, or the enemy cavalry, or simply your curiosity make you took you eyes one the sides of the line because someone is already fighting (cavalry as example) and you are still waiting .
Remember the episode when romans painted with black color the stones to throw with catapults? The obvious intention was to avoid enemies to realize the danger.

[RUBICON]

yes very true!

how does one watch all direction at once! The enemy, in front, beside, behind you maybe!

I imagine the confusion of battle, sometimes you are a sitting duck!

This must be discipline to stay focussed. I remember reading Caesars Gallic Wars and his reference to the veteran legionaires itching to charge, while the newer less experienced ones in front bundled with nerves waiting. The confusion and not knowing of what a battle was like.

I wonder how I would have coped and fared in the front line. Does it necessarily mean during the confusion that even the best fighter was not guaranteed survival. Much the same during modern day Normandy and teh storming of the beaches by the allies, no guarantee of survival. You were one amongst many!

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[Velite]

Salvete

Interesting matter in discussion. To such intention I can tell some personal experiences of mine, happened while I was fighting in the lines of Ars Dimicandi.

Vocal orders
The noise of the clash among two armies is so tall that the vocal orders cannot be hearings: howls, bumps of shields, clangor of weapons they prevent the listening of bawls.
The first lines of fighters don't hear anything in the moment of the real clash, because too much careful to the fight. This is worth for us modern, but the experience and the training of the Roman legionaries would have been able to make them more careful to the vocal commands, but I doubt of it.

Then it is certain whether to give vocal orders in the beautiful mean of the clash is as to shout to the wind. The centurion could shout for a quarter of but he would be heard nearby there only by its fellow soldiers, not from the whole line of centuria.
In a lot of battles fought by Ars Dimicandi the centurion or the tribuno has had to shout more times the same order because the legionaries felt him. But if the legionaries of the first or of the second line had not repeated the order, the most distant legionaries would never have felt.

Then it is enough clear that the orders in the moment of the battle had to be give with some Sounds, of horn, of tuba or of buccina and, because no, also with an whistle. Because to deny this?
An any tool that produces an acute and audible sound to great distance is useful to the purpose to send orders. I think that horns and tubas produce a strong sound that could use to give orders to move to great unities (centurie or cohorts). Vegezio and Strategikon it seems me they say this way. A whistle instead could have served to centurio to give orders to the alone his centuria or to a group of his men.

I think this could be happened.

Transmission orders with voice I think was used only out of the fight, in training, in the field or during the march, but not always because we know that also in those occasions orders were given with the sounds of horn, buccine and tubas.

Signa
also with the signa (vexilla and signa) orders could be imparted. We of Ars Dimicandi have also tried the transmission orders in battle through vexilla. The transmission of orders with the vexillas has not clearly happened during the battle, but in the preliminary phase (moves of departments), execution of manoeuvres, realignment the lines, or in the final phase (reformation of departments).

This way of transmission orders has worked well. Of however Strategikon of Maurice says that Ensign talked to all the men saying to be careful and to follow his own insignia.

Excuse me for my English

[RUBICON]

You re english is fine!

I agree, even in team sport, it is sometimes difficult to hear your captain when you are only ten men, let alone a centruy of 80!

I would have to say, that without horns etc it would almost be impossible to relay commands over the sounds of battle.

You raise a good point too, to turn and look for the signals would turn you away from the enemy and missiles. Having just read the account of Marcus Aius in the final stages of the Varus disaster, he constantly refers to the sudden appearance of german warriors, as he cuts them down. He also refers to the impossible situation of the remaining legionaires turning to 'instinctively' look for the missiles to save themselves only to be struck down. Therefore in such a situtaion I would be preparing my shield for the oncoming missiles, not turning to look for the signals to retreat or reform, but the sound of a familiar horn or whistle would allow me to keep eye on the enemy and to move into position as instructed.

I think we can safely conclude, voice commands were not used to direct centuries, let alone legions.

[RUBICON]

I think we can safely conclude, voice commands were not used to direct centuries, let alone legions.


Let me clarify that!

Maybe voice commands used for when moving along a line of soldiers before battle, or yelled to those in close proximity but to direct a large group of legionaires amongst the deafening sounds of battle, I would think not.

[Tarbicus]

Let's face it, all of the methods for communicating orders mentioned so far are possible. Voice commands could be passed down the line by the men not fighting who made sure the men in the front line knew what was coming up. Whistles were in use, and IIRC a whistle has been found in a military context (must check that out, could be poor memory syndrome). Whether the cornu gave an intricate command, or simply sounded out for the men to look to instructions given by the motions of the standard, we just don't know. Perhaps the optio's staff was to hit the men in the rear ranks to make sure they took notice of his orders and to pass them forwards? There must be a hundred ways of issuing orders.

Does anyone know how it was done in more recent times when formation fighting was still in use? During the Napoleonic Wars maybe, where the noise was probably louder and the battlefield filled with smoke?

[Robert Vermaat]

You raise a good point too, to turn and look for the signals would turn you away from the enemy and missiles.

According to the Strategicon, the signa were carried almost on the the front line, among the heaviest armour. My bet is that this was just the reason - so that every man could see the signals without having to turn around.

[RUBICON]

I discovered this tonight. I would be interested in anyone s thought and if Vegetius ideas are what are practiced today by re enactors.

[Tarbicus]

You raise a good point too, to turn and look for the signals would turn you away from the enemy and missiles.

According to the Strategicon, the signa were carried almost on the the front line, among the heaviest armour. My bet is that this was just the reason - so that every man could see the signals without having to turn around.

That makes sense to me also, but I would have thought that for the men in the very front line engaged with the enemy (presumably slightly ahead of the standard) something would need to happen to let them know that the standard was actually doing something, or for the order from the standard to be relayed to them at least audibly from the men behind them.

Conjecturaly, I don't see why a visual order couldn't be also shouted by the men and repeated with a cornu, or any variation thereof. Better safe than sorry and it doesn't require any effort.