thoughts on Formations and such

[Tarbicus]

In Cannae, Gregory Daly seems to have an opinion on densities, IIRC. I can't find the reference right now, but will do later.

[Luca]

well, Cannae "was" a density problem.....

[RUBICON]

With density and close combat...I think common sense prevails....as you said Luca, we have the swords, the men and the space. Tarbicu is right, the germans with their long swords needed space to swing them. the Roman, I think could have packed tightly as their main strength was thrusting through the lines. Then again, with the length of sword the germans had, they would have been a fair and safe distance from teh legionaire to avoid the thrusting action!

Maybe 'pressing' was meant as maybe confronting the line, pressuring it in any sense I imagine.

[Luca]

in any sense...

[Hibernicus]

Pressing.. from experience, a quick pace or two forward towards an enemy that won't get close enough causes him to fall back in order to maintain his needed space and to avoid your weapons.

But the fellow behind him doesn't step back at the same time and the fellow behind the 2nd fellow does not move as soon .. you end up forcing them to bunch up in very short order.

We call such an advance a pulse charge, a quick advance to contact followed by a short retreat and regroup. Very effective. The whole action takes seconds. The entire line can charge or every other man or one side of the line and not the other...

We've even trained the enemy to recoil/retreat by giving a bogus command to pulse charge.

[egfroth]

At the recent Hastings re-enactment (yes, I know, hardly a Roman period thing, but there were about 1500 warriors engaged) each side had three ranks. There was a "gentlemen's agreement" for simultaneous replacement of the front rank of each side by the rank behind it, without taking advantage of the momentary confusion of the other side.

But there was a fair bit of confusion, and I have no idea how (or if) it was really carried out at the time. Perhaps nothing more formal than stepping into the gap left by the guy in front of you dying?

Sorry; hardly germane to things Roman, but certainly indicative of the confusion involved in this activity. If they had rehearsed this over and over on the parade-ground it might have gone very differently. But I really can't see it happening at all if the ranks were heavily engaged. Recipe for disaster in my opinion. Too much opportunity for Murphy's Law to come into effect. ("If Anything Can Go Wrong, It Will . . .)

[Tarbicus]

At the recent Hastings re-enactment (yes, I know, hardly a Roman period thing, but there were about 1500 warriors engaged) each side had three ranks. There was a "gentlemen's agreement" for simultaneous replacement of the front rank of each side by the rank behind it, without taking advantage of the momentary confusion of the other side.

The thing is they're re-enactors who don't really train and drill every single day, and whose lives and fortune don't really depend on it. I'm not disrespecting them, perish the thought.

But....

[egfroth]

Oh I totally agree. To a trained soldier they would have seemed the merest rabble. But apart from the huscarls (the elite household troops of the lords), very few fighters at that time would have had any opportunity to train in battle formations.

The poem The Battle of Maldon (written some time after 991) decribes the lord showing his less experienced troops how to hold their shields(!)

The Roman military system was in a class apart.

[RUBICON]

Unfortunately, I think we will never understand or comprehend what it must be like to stand against an enemy, formidable or not, simply because our "lives are not at risk" in our attempt to re create life in the rank.

Daily training, drilling & experience would have made teh roman legionaire a true weapon of war, no wonder the veterans were held in such high esteem.

What an experience if someday, we coudl create the situation to actually feel your heartbeat pounding facing a germanic horde of barbarians.