Leather Lorica Segmentata

[Luca]

Well friends,

let's continue "into" a more pertinent topic.

Before to start let me remind the last topic where raged the problem:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... t=numantia

Here is also a picture about I would like to discuss:
http://www.romanhideout.com/images/vari ... entata.asp

[Flavius Promotus]

Here is also a picture about I would like to discuss:

AAARRGHHH !!! APAGE SATANAS !!!

[arklore70]

hmmm,

didn't the iron age start around 1200 B.C.? While it looks pretty and all, I can not see why the Romans would put so much work and effort into a leather product like that. Seems to be missing the chest plates. Not sure what protection this leather version wold offer, seems too think to stop a piercing weapon, or a heavy slashing attack.

Now, that said, I guess in theory, that light infantry skirmishers could have been outfitted with leather armor of some sort to help pursue and chase down fleeing enemies.

v/r
Mike

[Tarbicus]

The issue between leather and metal segs seems to be mobility rather than evidence.

It's worth re-reading the entire thread Luca posted. Ars Dimicandi in Italy love leather segs, but the problem is it's mostly based on sculptural evidence, which is all about interpretation anyway, not hard physical objects. But, they do have a point about how wearing leather segs gives you far more mobility than metal segs, and it is very difficult to perform some of the tasks depicted on Trajan's Column and other sculptural depictions wearing a metal seg - I've tried and they are right, but I was wearing a Deepeeka seg, not custom built to fit. However, it would be interesting to try the tasks wearing one of these:
[url:8dnr9v7z]http://www.varmouries.com/anc_47.html[/url]

I find the Ars Dimicandi armour very faithful to depictions, especially on the upper back. The photo you posted Luca does seem to be faithful to depictions, but then there's a whole argument about the depictions themselves I suppose :?

[Comerus Gallus]

Well friends,

let's continue "into" a more pertinent topic.

Before to start let me remind the last topic where raged the problem:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... t=numantia

Here is also a picture about I would like to discuss:
http://www.romanhideout.com/images/vari ... entata.asp

(brrrr.)

I know where that comefrom! http://www.rieti2000.it/armatureromane/corazze.htm

Those two lion heads seems to be two modern nock!...nock!... for doors , & dont know where he got his ispiration from? :| //www.romanhideout.com/images/various/leather_loricasegmentata.asp">http://www.romanhideout.com/images/vari ... entata.asp


I do love the depicting leather segmentata from the collum: http://www.arsdimicandi.net/ad_1_00009c.htm

The icon where the roman is cutting with an ax from his back, has a point.
I had try it, and was obiously not good with my metalic seg...when I do the same action, the two edging par of my neck almost scocked me, thanx to God they weren't sharp, the same thing happens when I try to lift my arms up like with the basquet :roll: ...

What I also noticed, it is that they are not trying to do the same action of the icons, but a more convenient movement to make their point more strong...But the icon of the roman with the basquet on his shoulders I can do it with no problem... I will search more trjan's colum for test...

Then in new aloy version hock: : http://www.rieti2000.it/armatureromane/arm_arred.htm

[arklore70]

All good points.

I happen to own a Lorica Segmentata from Valentine Armories that is displayed. I put the thing through the ringer this weekend at Castra Roma. It is 100% articulate in movement. In combatives and melee combat, I had no issues moving around, and I had no issues throwing pilum in formation.



That said, I think it is realistic to think that the tasks depicted in Trajan's column could have been realistically accomplished with a metal lorica segmentata.

It sits and fits as well as modern ballistic armor, which I have worn for extended periods of time. I only had my tunic on underneath, and experienced no chaffing. etc...

always looking to learn more I am

v/r
Mike

[Luca]

The mobility of a metallic seg lorica can vary a lot.
The Deepeeka Seg has very strong leather straps inside that don't allow metal pieces to overlap when stressed by a moving arm.
My seg has very thin and soft leather straps. This means that when I try to get my arms over my head I can do it without any problems much much better than it is demonstrated in those pics with the leather seg.

[Luca]

let me point out that some of the loricas in the website www.armatureromane.com are considered "for interior decoration" (armature da arredamento). I mean nothing to do with archeology, but just art.

[Magnus]

I have a hard time picturing heavy infantry in leather body armour. Skirmishers or scouts perhaps in leather...but not the core infantry.

[Robert Vermaat]

let me point out that some of the loricas in the website www.armatureromane.com are considered "fot interior decoration" (armature da arredamento). I mean nothing to do with archeology, but just art.

Nice art, then..

[Marius_Ursus]

Yeah, beautiful.

Just from a purely hypothetical standpoint, I don't think even if leather segmentatae were worn in battle, we'd see an archaeological example of one. Once the leather was torn, it would be pretty useless. I can't imagine trying to repair something like that.

I can also imagine - again this is purely hypothetical - a miles wearing a leather lorica until a steel one became available.

[Luca]

hey Robert, note I wrote "some of the loricas".

that example is not included into them far I understand.

Apart of this example, I believe the discussion is not for "leather lorica", but on "leather segmentata".
I posted that pic just to start the discussion, because it was becoming hot and too far from the original topic "Classis soldier...." in a different topic.

[Dan Howard]

So what do these leather segmentata weigh? From what I have seen of these leather "reconstructions " they usually weigh less than 10 lbs. Leather this thin is useless against the most common threat on the battlefield - spears and arrows. May as well wear the subarmalis by itself - it would provide the same level of protection. Segmented lorica made from leather that is thick enough to actually offer some protection would be too thick to articulate properly. Better off with leather scale or a solid "curie". Which, coincidentally, is consistent with the archaeological record. We have tons of evidence for leather scale and leather coats, but nothing to suggest the use of segmented leather in any culture apart from some dodgy interpretations of scupltural evidence.

[FAVENTIANVS]

Well, few years ago, when I was with the VII Gemina, we had a gig at Pont du Gard with other groups, where they wore their leather segs and they said they've made'em with maximum accuracy and bla, bla, bla... well, few time later I saw THOSE SAME segmentatas on an Italian porn movie... I don't want to offend anybody with that said but, I'm sure they where the same ones.

[Tib. Gabinius]

I really dont know why this is discussed...
Theres not even one real archaelogical hint for a "lorica lorica" or "Corbridge e MarcAurelio-C " (the names ars dimicandi give ti to them).
They only make a special "interpretation" of some pictures on monuments.
http://www.arsdimicandi.net/ad_1_00004a.htm

So, there is still no reason to wear a leather "segmentata".
And even ars dimicandi seems to start wearing the metal one (look in their homepage, and you will see more and more guy, who leave the "lorica lorica" alone).