War and Siege Machines

[P. Lilius Frugius Simius]

Khairete!

My novel about the Second Rebellion of Egypt under the XVII Dinasty, and the Egyptian Expedition, (codenamed Inaros and with provisional title The Libyan) is moving along, slowly, but firmly... over 46,000 words right now, and moving up...

I'm writing the siege of Memphis, by the Delian League army and Inaros's rebel army.

My understanding was that most war machines were invented by a Magna Hellas king of Siracuse before Dyonisus, against the Carthaginians... If this is so, it happened more than a century after the events I am telling...

Which siege and war machines were available to Greeks, Persians, and Egyptians/Libyans in mid-V BCE?

Info and web pages appreciated...

thanks!

[Dan Howard]

The Assyrians had plenty of siege weapons. They date much earlier than the timeperiod to which to refer.

The most basic is the siege ramp
http://www.ebibletools.com/israel/lakish/DCP_1212.html

They also had siege towers with a battering ram at the botom and an archer platform at the top, which was generally as high as the walls they were attacking.

More Assyrian siege tactics
http://www.chandlerschool.org/teacher/m ... age18.html
http://www.chandlerschool.org/teacher/m ... age17.html
http://www.chandlerschool.org/teacher/m ... age16.html

[P. Lilius Frugius Simius]

Dan,
thanks for your prompt reply!

A ram, I should have guessed... By mid-V BCE most civilizatios would have access to it, and other machines, through, at least, the spread of the Persians, and I'd say much earlier through Canaanite commerce, etc...

What about catapults, and other war machines used at the time of Alexander? Would they exist in mid-V BCE?

thanks a bunch!

[Jona Lendering]

There's a description of a machine to bring fire to the enemy's wall in Thucydides 4.100; but it is clear that he refers to a recently invented machine, so I think that it is too young for your novel.

[P. Lilius Frugius Simius]

Thanks!

One further addo: could the Egyptians/Persians sieged at Memphis have any machine (like catapults and "ballistae", not other ships) that could keep the Delian League fleet from taking control of the Nile around the town?

My hypothesis is that, for one reason or the other, the White Castle didn't fall because they could avoid the Greeks from isolating it from the Eastern Delta and Upper Egypt, where the egyptian population didn't support the libyan rebellion...

thanks a bunch!

[hoplite14gr]

Siege engines require resources.
Bronze age Palace cultures could sustain the burden.
Pausanias in ATTIKA is among those who think that DOYREIOS IPPOS (Trojan horse) was a siege engine.
The regress of the Geometric era "postponed" this projects.
The Greek colonies were richer than the main land Greeks so they could field larger armies and more sofisticated equipment.
Egypt was rich and the Persians could have fortification with active defence (war machines).
In theory the rebels and the Greeks could also use whatever Egyptian resources were available except that the Persians might have destroyed them first or keep the people with the "knowhow" hostages.
Standart tactic for the time was sourrounding the place with a palisade or wall and piling material to create a an upwards (siege ramp) way wide enough for the hoplite to charge. (Spartans at Ithome).
Kind regards

[Felix]

Lots of fun machines are shown in Assyrian reliefs, and many are described in the Hellenistic period, but the Classical Greeks didn't have a very good record of dealing with fortifications. To the best of my recollection, taking cities in the Peloponessian (sp) War usually involved treachery, and sometimes starving people out, but not ingenious gadgets. The Spartans never breached the Long Walls, and they certainly had adequate time to do so.

This deficiency may be related to lack of resources, or perhaps disinterest. Individual city states had only limited resources; on the other hand, several maintained fleets of triremes, which are probably roughly as costly to build (or more so).

[hoplite14gr]

Athenians had the reputation of TOICHOMACHOI = wallfighters.
The idea though was to devastate enemy countrysite to force open battle.
Cities who had ports could withstand long siege if the enemy did not have afleet to comlpete the blockade as supplies coul br brought in.
Spartans hated long campaigns due to fear of helot revolt.
Resources were a serious factor. When the Plateans destroyed the siege ram of the Thebans at the Pelloponessian War, the Thebans did not make another.
Mainland city states also did not have the resources of the colonies.
Kind regards
Stefanos

[Vincula]

You need this book:
[url:27hrcqlz]http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S7700[/url]

There is even an on-line extract here, covering your precise period.

[P. Lilius Frugius Simius]

Thanks! I'll see to get it...

best regards!

PS- quick update, I'm into the second third of the whole story told, over 61,000 words at this time.... Jay! :-) )