Othismos true nature

[hoplite14gr]

@ Felix: You are right, that is nost probably what happened.

@PMBardunias: Pleas have the patience to read from page one of this thread. The nswer to your questions is there with examples.
I live in Athens but I come from Doriis province -central Greece.

Kind regards

[Mitra]

Spear and pike are different approaches. The same applies in what type of opposition you face.

I agree.

Spearmen can slowly advnace in open order and use the tricks I described in my previous posts to keep ranks. If they face spearmen they can wait till they are 100 meter away and the perform synaspismos and charge.

If they face formed archers in open field they can advance in open order and close ranks at 200 meters and jog against the enemy.
It a can be done. Remember hoplitodromy had a purpose.
I have done hoplitodormy and it is not so difficult as you think

Pike men would have to advance "shoulder pikes" and level them just before jog. and they do not perform synaspismos.
Kind regards

About this i dont agree completly; i don't doubt of your experiments (close the rank in movement is reported also in Strategikon), but these what signification have respect the othismos interpretation as rugby scrummage?

If i remember correctly the synaspismos is a late hellenistic military term so we are sure the macedonian pikemen use this (and I have data that also renaissance pike square compress before the contact), we cannot tell the same about the hoplites formations (at my memory), with a 90 cm shield also the piknosis space offer good cover to the men.

Sure, hoplitodromy exp. is a good proof that hoplites can run like reported in the sources, but this don't tell nothing about the horizontal distance between the men during the run, and if i remember correctly the aim of armour race is the win running before the others, so this is good phisical exercise but a bad stimulus for hold the formation.

[hoplite14gr]

Synaspismos cannot be performed by pikemen because the pike prevents the collegues shield to overlap with yours.
http://www.legion-fourteen.com/moregreek.htm
http://www.hat.com/Curr/Curr8043.html

Only hypasists could perform it because occesionally they were armed like hoplites.

Yes hoplitodromy was about coming first.
But training was done with hopplites jogging together.
The aim was to jog in formation.
Troops can jog in formation (i.e Your Bersaglieri on parade!)

When we tried it first time in full gear we fumbled terribly.
(lots of metals clinging!!). We imporved with time.
Now we fumble because we worry about damaging our painted shields.
)

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

@PMBardunias: Pleas have the patience to read from page one of this thread. The nswer to your questions is there with examples.
I live in Athens but I come from Doriis province -central Greece

.

Thanks, I go back through and search.

My name seems to come from the region of Bardounia in southern Laconia- though why it is not the more common Bardouniotes I don't know. I have family still in Sparti and a town called Vassaras. So we share a doric ancestor some place

[Mitra]

Synaspismos cannot be performed by pikemen because the pike prevents the collegues shield to overlap with yours.
http://www.legion-fourteen.com/moregreek.htm
http://www.hat.com/Curr/Curr8043.html

This because you think the shield overlap, but the word dont implies this, only shield close each to other. At example for Pritchett, following Polybius, think that piknonis and synaspismos are synonyms, both 3 foot space formations. Asklepiodotus and Aelian, speak of synaspismos more closed of piknonis, but also tell that the first is a fixed defensive, not movement, formation. The only hoplitic era author using synaspismos is Xenophon, the other are successive and frequently they use it with the pike phalanx.

Troops can jog in formation (i.e Your Bersaglieri on parade!)

When we tried it first time in full gear we fumbled terribly.
(lots of metals clinging!!). We imporved with time.
Now we fumble because we worry about damaging our painted shields.
)

First we must establish, what was the training in formation made from the hoplites (if was one, Xenophon explictly says no compulsory training exist in Athens at his time).

yes the Bersaglieri jog (but you are sure the hoplites jog and not run with free pass?), but in road during the parade and like you view well in this film http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QmYPELuej4 , happen that they risk to touch one to other also without a 90 cm shield and more open space respect the 1 1/2 foot of synaspismos

PS: I going make some questions about the bersaglieri run to the people of italian military history newsgroup (luckily i'm made my military service in motorized corp not bersaglieri), so I will furnish you more precise data.

[hoplite14gr]

Middle class farmers (who composed the hoplite trooes) could afford and obliged also by law to sent their children to school. Moving as a group was parctised by the PAEDOTRIVES (gymanst).

Modern troopers do most close order drill including complex manuvers in two weeks. This could be achieved by ancients by the time they were 18 and took oath while joining the phalanx of their city.
The phalanx was adopted because it was brutally simple and troops could be trained quickly.
The expensive part was sword training that required time. Probably only Spartans were all trained in sword. The other city states only the elite hoplites (logadae or Sacred band)

Our experiments created a lot of metallic noise but once you get used to it
you can move and we feel that ovelaping shields add stability.
We belive our experiments prove that overlaping shields in art are not artists fantasy.
But probably the in Marathon the hoplites did not maintain perfect formation but it was dense enough to crush the "sparabara"
Kind regards

P.S Italian motorized units are luckier than us. Here they force us to run in formation even when going to the mess because they feel we become soft "riding on wheels" :twisted: :twisted:

[Mitra]

If i remember correctly Padeotrives and Gymanstes are athletic trainers for boys, young men and epheboi not military instructors. I dont remember (but i can mistake) formation training in athletic or in the epheboi two years military preparations but only javelin, bow, wrestle, run, athletic preparation,ecc.

Xenophon in the Spartan constitution make clear that complex phalanx maneuvers are made only by the spartans and explicates how they are possible, and that formation instructions are matter of hoplomacoi (which think that spartan formations are very complicated)

But probably the in Marathon the hoplites did not maintain perfect formation but it was dense enough to crush the "sparabara"

But not to the shallow center of army

Italian motorized units are luckier than us. Here they force us to run in formation even when going to the mess because they feel we become soft "riding on wheels"

Anyone interest that the soldiers of logistic units knows how run, is enough they transport a truck full of Milan missiles on rough terrain (luckily the work has been made from a my friend :twisted: )

[PMBardunias]

yes the Bersaglieri jog (but you are sure the hoplites jog and not run with free pass?), but in road during the parade and like you view well in this film

Its hard to tell because of the editing, but if you notice they start out at 5-6' spacing between files and end maybe 4'. Do you know if this is planned?

There is a tendency to converge laterally when you run. Watch any group of athletes run a sprint- you need lanes on the ground just to keep them apart. (Don't watch a race that goes around a turn for they converge to minimize distance, so its not the same effect). This is common to all animal herds or flocks and takes discipline and training to overcome. Those of you in the military probably know that "bunching" is always a bigger problem in spacing than "spreading".

[Paullus Scipio]

There is a tendency to converge laterally when you run. Watch any group of athletes run a sprint- you need lanes on the ground just to keep them apart. (Don't watch a race that goes around a turn for they converge to minimize distance, so its not the same effect). This is common to all animal herds or flocks and takes discipline and training to overcome. Those of you in the military probably know that "bunching" is always a bigger problem in spacing than "spreading".

Very true, and I suspect you are going to argue that this is what happened in Hoplite warfare, which it undoubtedly did at times, but as you also say, much military training is put into overcoming the trend, then as well as now.

[Mitra]

Its hard to tell because of the editing, but if you notice they start out at 5-6' spacing between files and end maybe 4'. Do you know if this is planned?

The band need more space respect the simple infantryman, with the instruments it more difficult go straight and they don't want risk the soldiers touch one to other when play music. The bersaglieri band received a more hard training (in music and run) respect the normal bersagliere.

[Mitra]

About previous discussion on the thigh wounds, the fighting between Eteocles and Polinices in the Phoenices paint a good fighting scenes, probably not much different from the hoplitic experience.

Also this paint from Paestum is good (note the same wounds described in the Phoenices):

http://utenti.lycos.it/campagneparallele/paestum.jpg

[hoplite14gr]

Hmm the Paastum fresco would more accuratelly depict Ekdromoi rather than formed spearmen.

Davide is right that the bandsmen are more in difficulty than regular troopers with evenly destributed load. That translates that a hoplite's biggest problem would be his shield but that could improve with training and time.

Kind regards

[Mitra]

Davide is right that the bandsmen are more in difficulty than regular troopers with evenly destributed load.

More that the load I mean that it is difficult play music when run. The arms movement has to be coordinate to legs movement.

[hoplite14gr]

Right Davide which means that the hoplites did not faced this problem.
We did not have imbalance issue while jogging in synaspismos.

Pyknosis is used for pikes but synaspismos can be done by spearmen.
As I said our experiments did not contradict art depictions and we discovered that is is better to aim at the opponent to your right rather than the exact opposite person.

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

OK,those videos might look highly irrelevant,but there are some tight formations there,and there's a lot of pushing(othismos) involved. They might add something on owr understanding of the hoplite battle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keLeRDk4 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_vw_ldz ... re=related
By the way,does anybody know what the hell those guys are doing? This is not SCA,I see pretty real weapons there... hock:
Khairete
Giannis