Pugnaces

[Tarbicus]

I saw a reference to the writer Gratius Falliscus on the web, and his mentioning of British wardogs, which he called pugnaces, which apparently became very popular with the Romans. Apparently they were the original Mastiff (latin = massivius?) and came in two sizes; big and small., the latter possibly being the original bulldog.

Does anyone have more information on these dogs and Gratius Falliscus? I could imagine them becoming favourite pets in the legion, so does anyone know if they were put to military use, perhaps as guard dogs? I see that dogtags have been found, and I read on another forum that the tags came in twos; one for the dog, the other for the owner (but I have no reference for that at all).

[ambrosius]

Seem to recall mention of a 'canis pugnax' being used by Romans
to 'worry' enemy cavalry. there may be a modern Italian breed
descended from them. (Maximus had one in 'Gladiator' - although
that was an Alsatian :wink: )

Ambrosius

[Praefectusclassis]

From the Oxford Classical Dictionary:
Gratias Faliscus [I thought Falliscus was suspect :wink: ], Latin poet contemporary with Ovid before 8AD, has one extant work in about 540 hexameters called the Cynegetica, treatment and management of dogs for hunting. He may have used an Alexandrian source for his list of dogs. There is apparently a similar poem, possibly related, by a Nemesianus.

No mention of wardogs. Seeing the time he wrote, if he attributes them to Britain, it must have been news that came with traders or something like that. Possibly not overly accurate.

[Tarbicus]

Gratias Faliscus [I thought Falliscus was suspect Wink]

Aye, sorry about that, and about as suspect as Gratias I.e., it's Gratius Faliscus.

[Tarbicus]

Okay, found this which explains a lot, and by a presumably bulldog-loving ancient history professor at that:
[url:xl77mxve]http://www.american-bulldog.com/molossus_myth.htm[/url]

He quotes sources and criticises the whole mastiff/mollosus folklore. Here's a simplified quote from Grattius/Gratius/Faliscus/Falisctis

"If you want a really good [hunting dog], a trip to Britain would almost be worth it. The British dogs may not look like much, but for bravery in a fight [with game animals, as the adjacent passages make clear] even the famous Molossus does not surpass them" In short, all Grattius is saying is that Britain produced plucky hunting dogs, period.

He does, however, quote a description of what makes a good watchdog in L. Junius Columella's De Re Rustica (written circa 60-65 A.D.), which he thinks sounds very mastiff-like:

"The guard dog for the house should be black in color so that during the day a prowler can be frightened by his appearance, When night falls, the dog, lost in the shadows, can attack without being seen. The head is so massive that it seems to be the most important part of the body. The ears fall toward the front, the brilliant and penetrating eyes are black or gray, the chest is deep and hairy, the hind legs are powerful, the front legs are covered with long thick hair, and he is short legged with strong toes and nails."

So, there's seemingly no real evidence of Roman wardogs or British dogs being exported en masse, just a lot of folklore and wishful thinking. Question answered I think.

[JEFF]

Id like to say hi to everyone im brand new to your forum today

There is a dealer on ebay selling what he has described as a ROMAN MILITARY CANIS-PUGNAX SCEPTRE MOUNT the item number is 6576917743 (sorry pretty new to computers too so not sure how to post a link yet :? ) A bit steep but an interesting piece

regards
jeff

[Tarbicus]

Thanks for the link Jeff, and welcome aboard

It's a nice piece, but I'd like to see where the conclusion that it's a "war dog" comes from, when it could just be a "hunting dog".

The image of a pack of fierce dogs being sent in as a first wave against the enemy is an impressive one. But to be honest, if I were in the frontline and one came at me I'd just stab it, and I wouldn't have to contend with a shield either. I can't see all that time and cost being spent breeding and training the animals just to have them slaughtered in their first melee. Perhaps against a less disciplined force they would be a good means of disrupting and softening up the enemy, and as many say "lack of evidence is not evidence of lack".

Does anyone out there know of Roman legions, as opposed to "barbarians", employing canine units for use in actual combat, and not as possibly just guard or hunting dogs? I'm sure it would have been mentioned in sources somewhere, and would be an interesting thing to see.

[Robert Vermaat]

There is a dealer on ebay selling what he has described as a ROMAN MILITARY CANIS-PUGNAX SCEPTRE MOUNT the item number is 6576917743 (sorry pretty new to computers too so not sure how to post a link yet :? ) A bit steep but an interesting piece

Hi Jeff,
Welcome to the forum.
Regarding your post, we recently introduced a rule which stipulates that we can discuss items from eBay, even post pictures, but not discuss the auctioning or put up a link to the eBay page itself.
I think this is the object?




That looks very nice. Sceptre mount? Would that be correct?

[Peroni]

I have always pictured lurchers greyhounds and wolfhounds as the breeds of dog exported to the continent from Britain.

Looking at all the depictions of dogs in hunting scenes on pottery and mosaics, they all appear to be this type of animal. I would also add that mastiffs are incredibly slow, due to their size, and likewise the shortness and bow shape of leg in the bulldog breeds (which due to modern breeding, are more or less unrecognisable from the original breed) would not be advantageous in battle or hunting scenarios.

As for the tenacity of british breeds, look no further than some of the smaller terriers!!

Regards,